GT500 Clone Project

[AJxtcman]

I hadn't looked at the WOT on the top end that much until Wednesday or Thursday. I thought the MAF was topping out around 5000. After I installed the injectors I never pushed the car to hard. Friday I called DBX and asked them about adjusting the MAF sensitivity for the Tip-in condition and the MAF topping out. As soon as I said I put 60lb injectors in the car he said I was going to max out the meter. With the 60lb injectors I think it is hitting 5v at 4800.

I just rescaled the MAF (in the MAF) and now I need to load HPT with the MAF xfer from the sensor.

Wish me luck.

BTW how to I force Open Loop?
I have the Zeitronix set up to read the MAF and Wide-band on one chart.

[AJxtcman]

This was the way the MAF was setup when he got the car back. I was hitting 5v at 4800 to 5000.
Note: this is the Match to Meter screen


This is the new curve. I hit 4.568v at 6500 rpm's

[RWTD]

What actual MAF sensor are you using? Injectors will NOT change the voltage readings on the MAF, FYI. Whoever told you that is a douchebag. You really need a stock sensor with a MAFia, OR an HPX sensor. Do NOT go with aftermarket sensors that have been recal'ed in an effort to match the flow rate of the injectors. That's BS tuning.

No need to force OL on the car, unless the O2 sensors are shot. Tune it with CL enabled. However, I would suggest temp. disabling LTFTs so that they will not function while you're dialing in the fueling. Dial in the MAF transfer with the STFT values you get from steady state testing. At WOT, the vehicle goes to OL anyway, naturally.

Also, what headers are on this car, or is it the stock manifolds? If aftermarket headers, is the O2 sensor in the collector, or in a single primary (bad!)?

[AJxtcman]

It has a DBX MAF on it. This is not calibrated off injector size. The Guy at DBX said I would need to rescale the MAF if I had 60lb injectors, but I was already at 5v before the injectors. I just looked at the max voltage one time before I installed the injectors.

The way I look at it the injector scaling wasn't correct after 8 weeks at the last shop
The MAF was pegging 5v just under 5000 rpm's. Again after 8 weeks at that shop.
I am telling you he paid for 5 to 6 weeks worth of tuning.

Everything as far as the tune goes has been throw out the door just on those 2 things

This car is running great, I have made huge leaps and major gains in just correcting those 2 things and correcting the tune for those changes.

By the end of the day I hit 4.69v on the MAF. That would be about 1550 kg/hr out of a 4.6L.

This has Pype's shorty headers and almost the complete Pype's system. The front section from the manifolds to the X pipe is stock.

[AJxtcman]

Thanks again James, Ben, and Greg. You guys have gone out of your way to help me and I appreciate it.

James you will be seeing something for your help shortly (this week), Ben I need the information to get you something, and Greg as soon as Air Fuel Tuning has some cash we are coming to your classes.

[AJxtcman]

James do you have the parameters for the M-9407-GT05 Mustang GT Dual Fuel Pumps? If I send you the DiabloSport tune can you look at it? I will need to email it.

[RWTD]

James do you have the parameters for the M-9407-GT05 Mustang GT Dual Fuel Pumps? If I send you the DiabloSport tune can you look at it? I will need to email it.

What do you mean Mustang GT Dual Fuel Pumps? Did they actually install the Ford Racing / GT500 fuel system that has dual pumps and dual FPDMs, or are you referring to the fact that somebody piggybacked an additional pump inside the tank with all the rest of the factory stuff (geezus, I hope not)?

If they used the latter, you can forget tuning it properly. Just go with the factory values and realize it's never going to be right.

And, no, I don't want to look at the DiabloSport tune. It'll be wrong anyway.

Edit, nevermind, I see that it's actually the Ford Racing kit based on the part # you gave above (I missed where you said that - was reading too fast). Okay, that's easy to tune for, BUT you're going to be limited on a few areas due to the fact that HPT has yet to rectify (I'll talk about those in a few):

In order to put in the proper PID values for this setup, please do the following (FYI, you can get this data by opening a GT500 file in HPT):

Fuel System:

Gain - Derivative: Set to 0
Gain - Integral: Set to 0.0549999997019768
Gain - Proportional: Set to 0.0599999986588955

Those are the MAIN parameters that need to be changed in order to allow the pumps to function properly.

Next, you need to copy the GT500 FPVT, including the axis points. HOWEVER, you're not going to be able to do this with HPT. Why? See my post here (Post #23):

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...040#post157040

My initial advice for someone would be to use SCT (or even DiabloSport, as I think they have the proper parameters for this now, but maybe they still don't) to build themselves a stock file with ONLY the GT500 changes needed for the FPVT, and then take HPT and suck that file out, and then dial in the FPVT values as datalogged. But, if you have SCT for this particular vehicle, I wouldn't see the need of using HPT, so the point is moot.

[n0dih]

RutRoh Raggy.....

[AJxtcman]

This is my new base tune after the injectors and the DBX MAF was scaled and extended. I added the Fuel Pump parameter for the twin pumps to this tune also.

This was installed as the new base and had no MAF xfer work at that time. This tune was pretty close, but I still had a bad tip-in lean.
Attachment 18835

This is the MAF xfer's in the DBX. As you can see I have basically extended it
Attachment 18836

I will post a screen shot of the lean tip in. MAF vs TPS Vs AFR later today. It is stranger than I first thought


Grrrrrr I forgot to check Fuel pressure with an gauge. I will have to do that tonight. I have a digital guage that will record Min and Max.

[AJxtcman]

This is the tip-in lean or lean spike. This is the first WOT run after the Injectors and MAF xfer was completed.

The line labeled User1 is the MAF voltage. This chart would fit the above tune minus the fuel pump parameters.

[RWTD]

A few things:

#1: You still have not lowered "Desired Injector Pressure Drop"to 39.15 psi, like I asked you to do previously. You ONLY raise that if you do not have enough injector. Being you have 60# injectors, you do have enough range (700+ at 39.15 psi), so set the table to 39.15 psi.

#2: Do the same to "Injector Pressure Drop Adder".

#3: In regards to the tip-in, that's usually transient fueling that needs to be tackled. Now, if your FPVT is off, this will cause the same thing (it all ties in together). However, like I said in my last post, you're screwed with HPT from building a proper FPVT with a boosted vehicle. Also, you can only build a proper one by datalogging Actual Pump Voltage versus FPVT Voltage versus FPVT X axis versus FPVT Y axis, and I'm not so sure that HPT can even log these particular parametesr.

BTW, are you really running that lean on a boosted vehicle? You should be no higher than 12.0 AFR.

[AJxtcman]

Thanks again
I have the "Desired Injector Pressure Drop" corrected in the 7-6 file from yesterday, but that wasn't the file for the data-log. I also worked on the MAF xfer yesterday and I know it was lean and I worked at correcting that.

We ran it up pretty slow and kept it in Closed Loop as high as we could and the fuel trims looked very good. Most of the time I had + - 2%, but I still had some reaching near the + or - 10% on the top side I saw 3.6v MAF in Closed loop. We tuned it for a while until we got fed up with the tip in.

"Injector Pressure Drop Adder" I didn't change I missed that one.

[AJxtcman]

Hey James did you notice the delay in the lean spike?
Before I added the MAF voltage I thought the MAF was the cause. You can see that it isn't

If you hold a steady throttle and just pop it then return the throttle back the TPS and MAF go up together and return together and then the AFR shoots up. It is almost like a restricted fuel system. The AFR might even drop with the pop of the throttle. Now in the pop I don't get up to 3.6V MAF, but I had good fuel trim up to that
If I run it up to say 3000 in closed loop and then snap the throttle it doesn't spike. It I snap the throttle below 3k and it goes into Open Loop it will do it every time.

[RWTD]

Like I mentioned earlier, this is a transient issue, which can also be tracked back to the FPVT. There are transient fueling tables that can be adjusted, but you don't touch those parameters until the FPVT is properly dialed in.

[AJxtcman]

I will Data-Log the FPVT with the DiabloSport and see what comes up with that.

I can not use the HPT scanner on this car with the Beta Version of HPT that I am using.

My fuel pressure gauge master kit is in Rock Hill SC (I am up in Wisconsin) and it has a Ford Fuel line adapter. The Digital Gauge I have at work is a SPX/Kent-Moore tool so it is for a GM car and it doesn't have a Ford adapter. I hope the Mac guy stops in tomarow and I can get an adapter.

[AJxtcman]

The DiabloSport make the car run different when connected. I was usinging it as a scan tool.

I have HPT's scan tool working and I found 1 item that was messing me up.

Now I can make adjustments that mean something

[RWTD]

No, it should not make the car run different when connected. It's just reading data, not commanding. DiabloSport does not have bidirectional controls.

[RWTD]

I have HPT's scan tool working and I found 1 item that was messing me up.

Anytime you are tuning you need to disable the filtering logic intially. In the end, once you have ALL the tables adjusted properly, including the Load w/ Failed MAF tables, then you can reenable it. However, my guess is that with HPT you won't be able to adjust every table properly that is needed to make the filtering logic work properly, so I'm going to have to recommend to you to leave it off.

With all the being said, the logic changed later in the lifespan of the PowerPC vehicles, so just switching off "Cylair Anticipation" may not work for the newer vehicles (it seems to be the late 2007 calibrations and newer). If you notice in your tune, Cylair Anticipation is already Disabled (someone previously switched this off, apparently), yet you were possibly having problems with the fueling doing as you're commanding through the MAF (from what it sounds like in your previous post above). More than likely this particular vehicle's calibration is one of the ones that is affected by the logic change, SO you need to switch the CylAir Filter to Disabled, but leave Cylair Anticipation Enabled (pay attention to what I'm telling you here, do NOT leave both Disabled). Test that, see if that works, and let me know here.

Thanks!

[AJxtcman]

No, it should not make the car run different when connected. It's just reading data, not commanding. DiabloSport does not have bidirectional controls.

I will get a Video of it.

[RWTD]

Also, it's important you pay attention to me when I'm telling you what to do, LOLOL! Why do I say that? Because I told you in a PM that you need to absolutely make sure you follow my instructions for proper disabling of the CMCV/IMRC system, and you didn't (unless you've updated your tune since the last tune you posted in your post #149 above). Please follow these instructions EXACTLY:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20810

Talk later,

James