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Thread: How to tune 60lb injectors - 56k = ZZzzzzz...

  1. #81
    Tuner RooTBeeR's Avatar
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    >_< well i'll play with it tomorrow...just found my tune still had the stock map/vac injector offset tables so i fixed those and will play tomorrow
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  2. #82
    Tuner thebucky84's Avatar
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    basically what your saying is to get new Inj. Flow rate numbers i take my numbers from flow matching that match the kpa values in the editor and divide them by 1.3. that new list of values becomes my new offset chart values? if that's the case i have 80LB Siemens injectors but when i got them they didn't have the flow math paperwork with them all they had was a paper stating Static Flow Rate: 80 lb/hr at 43.5 psi
    Static Flow Rate: 92.38 lb/hr at 58 psi so if i dived the 92.38 by 1.3 then i get 71.061..... but if i use that i would have to make all the values the same and i don't think it will work correctly? trying to get this right and don't understand the walk through completely please help.

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  3. #83
    Tuner thebucky84's Avatar
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    ok wow i just figured this out ......the injector flow rates table ends at 63 lb.hr flow rate max and you use the offset table to multiply a lower value in the offset table which equals your true injector flow rate. so for my 80lb.hr injectors to work they actualy flow the 71 but i ended up using a flow rate mod of 1.85 which landed in the 50lb.hr range in the offset table. now she runs like a champ!!! the gears are turning ..... the lightbulb just went from dome light to HID's haha

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  4. #84
    Tuner RooTBeeR's Avatar
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    i used tables from this
    Last edited by RooTBeeR; 09-18-2011 at 01:18 PM.
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  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by RooTBeeR View Post
    i used tables from this

  6. #86
    Tuner RooTBeeR's Avatar
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    Why are you logs secret mac?
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  7. #87

    Tuning 60lb injectors

    Sorry for bringing this back up but I've tried doing this your way but can't get it down. This is for an LS1 Camaro. I have flow-matched injectors ranging from 661-663cc at 3 bar. I took the short adder table and recorded my Inj PW vs AFR Error. I then used the Error % and multiplied it to the total PW then subtracted the original PW to get the difference which was the adder. So my total PW was multiplied by my Err %.

    Am I going at this wrong? It doesn't seem to be making a big difference. Is it possible I just need to continue doing it until it gets closer? I have done this 4 times and haven't seen a major improvement. I copied your Offset table as accurately as possible...Meaning that I only copied the actual offset that matched my Camaro's table, the ones that ended in 0 or 5. I interpolated the numbers between and seemed pretty accurate to yours. Maybe this was wrong?

    After copying your Offset I then copied Greg Banishes IFR table ranging from 72-79 lbs/hr.

    I adjusted my Min Fuel Milligrams to .0199.

    Changed my Min Injector Pulse and Default Injector Pulse to .805.

    Note: First time after running these settings and Greg Banish's SPA data I noticed everything was about 6% lean, so I changed my IFR vs Volts to account for the overall lean.

    So I started tuning in the way that you described, I am lean at about 1.52 PW so I started adding to the SPA table in accordance to my AFR Err%.


    What am I doing wrong???? I'm going crazy.


    -Kyle

  8. #88
    Just to add to that, I thought it was odd that my entire VE was within 2-3% prior to the injectors and then it was about 6% off on the entire table. This is not accounting for the fact my Fuel Press is actually at about 60-62 which is about 7% higher then stock. So letting my IFR table sit 7% lower then what I believe to be my accurate I had to lower it 6% lower then that to be accurate. That is 13% lower on my IFR vs Vacuum to be close to what my original error % was.

    But I can live with that small inaccuracy if I can account for it in the VE and SPA table. I need some serious help lol.

    Thanks,

    -Kyle

  9. #89
    Advanced Tuner HartRod's Avatar
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    Has anyone done this for SD80's in a LS3/E38 computer?
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  10. #90
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    That's a better question for the v8 section. But it wouldn't be hard to do.

  11. #91
    Tuner in Training DrBrown54's Avatar
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    This hasn't been touched much lately, but I'm curious year later now if it's worth trying to use the 60# siemens dekas or just use a different injector altogether?? I know there are other similar injectors, like Bosch makes one in the 50# range I think. I have not purchased my tuner yet and reading through this thread it intimidates the crap out of me. I've not had to do any kind of crazy work arounds like this to tune anything else. But I wasn't using HPT either. So are the 60# dekas not worth the trouble and are there substitutions?

  12. #92
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    we figured out what was happening. the siemens deka injectors run just fine. we have 80lb SD running smooth lines in the scanner at idle too. one thing to keep in mide is the 60SD injectors are a single center cone nozzle injector. since the ecotec runners are split runner for Quad Valve technology the cone sprays right into the divider wall. if you decide to go away from 60SD's try to find another similar injector that has 2 angle cone nozzle tips so you can spray fuel around the port divider.
    One thing most people dont know about the lsj is that one of the fuel tables is multiplied internally by the ecu. this is a feature we have no control over as of current date so when you get to the table you will have to take the data that comes with your injectors flow test and multiply it by .5 so you halve the data being entered into the table. after all that the injectors get really close and much easier to handle.

    One of the guys here has tested a bunch of worthy candidates and when he logs on i bet he will make a statement about which ones are quality replacements if you wish to avoid the SD Injectors.

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  13. #93
    I don't know about what the Previous post is talking about but I do know the sd60's pretty much suck. I have mine done pretty close but if you can spend the money go with injector dynamics. If you choose to go the siemen way get back with me. I'll help you out the best i can.

  14. #94
    Senior Tuner cobaltssoverbooster's Avatar
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    the post is saying that the sd injectors have a cone spray pattern. there is one orifice and it sprays straight which turns out to be straight at the divider wall.
    if you really want the correct fuel injector it needs to have a dual cone spray pattern. the spray pattern should be angled away from each other some so when it does spray it sprays into each intake valve instead of being aimed at the port divider.

    SD Injectors run just fine with that last note put aside. my personal opinion here: Injector Dynamics does have the best support i have seen from a few companies i have bought stuff from. i use ID750's on an all motor 914-6 stroker that gets run in multiple classes by running nitrous. The ID's run smooth and setup very quickly. For the budget racer the precision that ID makes their injectors to is very high and this costs money so they may be out of reach for some. Cue in the SD injectors and the various companies versions of the EV Series injectors.

    The tables i was talking about before are the Fuel Injector Offset tables. The ecu internal hard coding multiplies this table by a set value. When you insert your data from your flow testing into these tables you must multiply them by .5 to cut the values in half. Once they have been halved you can copy and paste that data into the Offset table. Most ecu's are just copy and paste flow data into the ecu especially if your getting a set of injector dynamics fuel injectors. Keep in mind these values are meant to be a close starting point as every setup will have small variances that will need to be corrected for. The halving offset values is mentioned in iirc about 2-3 alternate threads started by other hard driven forum members. I would suggest reading those threads to understand this feature more in depth.

    if my posts are confusing i apologize, i try my best to word it as simple and easily understanding for everyone but sometimes it doesn't happen.

    Edit: added visual aid- IIRC the SD injectors are similar to the spray pattern of the wide cone injector spray. The best set if you think about runner design would be the Split Stream style spray pattern also shown in the picture attached.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by cobaltssoverbooster; 11-20-2013 at 02:50 PM. Reason: added visual aid
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  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrBrown54 View Post
    This hasn't been touched much lately, but I'm curious year later now if it's worth trying to use the 60# siemens dekas or just use a different injector altogether?? I know there are other similar injectors, like Bosch makes one in the 50# range I think. I have not purchased my tuner yet and reading through this thread it intimidates the crap out of me. I've not had to do any kind of crazy work arounds like this to tune anything else. But I wasn't using HPT either. So are the 60# dekas not worth the trouble and are there substitutions?
    Read this. Answers your question and then some.


    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...r-basic-how-to



    Quote Originally Posted by chevyalltheway View Post
    I don't know about what the Previous post is talking about but I do know the sd60's pretty much suck. I have mine done pretty close but if you can spend the money go with injector dynamics. If you choose to go the siemen way get back with me. I'll help you out the best i can.
    Injector Dynamics are good injectors, but are really not correct for this application. ID injectors are the same as everyone elses(Bosch EV14's), but with correct injector data. The data is what you pay for. If you want injectors correct for this application AND with correct data, contact me.
    Last edited by lwrs10; 11-20-2013 at 10:38 PM.

  16. #96
    So does anyone still have this offset chart? I don't have the time right now to write it all in and looking for one that is copy and paste for just the offset thank you

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.E.S.T. Performance View Post
    So does anyone still have this offset chart? I don't have the time right now to write it all in and looking for one that is copy and paste for just the offset thank you
    Did you find what you needed?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobaltssoverbooster View Post
    the post is saying that the sd injectors have a cone spray pattern. there is one orifice and it sprays straight which turns out to be straight at the divider wall.
    if you really want the correct fuel injector it needs to have a dual cone spray pattern. the spray pattern should be angled away from each other some so when it does spray it sprays into each intake valve instead of being aimed at the port divider.

    SD Injectors run just fine with that last note put aside. my personal opinion here: Injector Dynamics does have the best support i have seen from a few companies i have bought stuff from. i use ID750's on an all motor 914-6 stroker that gets run in multiple classes by running nitrous. The ID's run smooth and setup very quickly. For the budget racer the precision that ID makes their injectors to is very high and this costs money so they may be out of reach for some. Cue in the SD injectors and the various companies versions of the EV Series injectors.

    The tables i was talking about before are the Fuel Injector Offset tables. The ecu internal hard coding multiplies this table by a set value. When you insert your data from your flow testing into these tables you must multiply them by .5 to cut the values in half. Once they have been halved you can copy and paste that data into the Offset table. Most ecu's are just copy and paste flow data into the ecu especially if your getting a set of injector dynamics fuel injectors. Keep in mind these values are meant to be a close starting point as every setup will have small variances that will need to be corrected for. The halving offset values is mentioned in iirc about 2-3 alternate threads started by other hard driven forum members. I would suggest reading those threads to understand this feature more in depth.

    if my posts are confusing i apologize, i try my best to word it as simple and easily understanding for everyone but sometimes it doesn't happen.

    Edit: added visual aid- IIRC the SD injectors are similar to the spray pattern of the wide cone injector spray. The best set if you think about runner design would be the Split Stream style spray pattern also shown in the picture attached.
    I am looking around at the injector options, and reading forum info; are there certain brands that offer dual-cone pattern?
    Last edited by smcstevesmc; 12-05-2021 at 10:28 PM.

  19. #99
    Tuner JMsquared's Avatar
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    Yes, there are.
    I got a set from Fuel Injector Connection...
    They are FIC 650CC Bosch 60lb split spray flow matched
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