Are tunes detectable by dealer?

[LT1GMC]

The reason I ask is this new document I found, and my question is whether tunes I do with HP Tuners can be seen by the process described below?

info on GM'S crackdown on aftermarket tunes...

the following is the p.i for calibration confirmation from GM

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#PIP4386: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations - 2.0 2.2 2.4 2.8 2.9 3.0 3.1 3.2 3.4 3.5 3.6 3.8 3.9 4.2 4.3 4.4 4.6 4.8 5.0 5.3 5.7 6.0 6.2 7.0 7.4 8.1 - (Apr 8, 2008)


Subject: Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations


Models: 2005-2009 GM Passenger Cars and Light Duty Trucks

except Pontiac Vibe, Chevy Aveo, and All Saab Models




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The following diagnosis might be helpful if the vehicle exhibits the symptom(s) described in this PI.

Condition/Concern:
A dealer may have the need to verify engine calibrations. If a dealer feels an aftermarket power-up calibration has induced engine and/or drive train damage, there is now a way to verify what calibration is currently in the vehicle.

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case, or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than those that these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and / or other driveline components where a non GM engine calibration has been verified, are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Recommendation/Instructions:
Instructions for confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN)
• Go to TIS2WEB

• Select Calibration Information (SPS Info)

• Enter VIN

• Select "Get Cal ID"

• Select ECM Engine Control Module

• Hit "next"

• Select "Complete History"

• Print

Take Printout to Vehicle along with Tech II
• Plug in Tech II

• Go to diagnostics and build the vehicle

• Select Powertrain

• Select the engine

• Select F0 - Engine Control Module

• Select F4/F5 - I/M information System / Module ID information*

• Select F1

• Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

* This step may vary by controller; use the Module ID Information in the Engine Controls.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued.

If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY calibration verification numbers (CVN's) do not match the printout, it is likely that a non GM certified calibration has been installed.

In order to document the case - a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the TECH 2 screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture and a PDF copy of the TIS2WEB printout should be forwarded to [email protected] for verification along with the VIN and the reason the vehicle is currently in for service. Please copy your GM Area Service Manager (DVM/DSM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 48 hours.

If both the Part numbers and the CVN are different, photograph the part numbers and CVN's on the tech 2 screen as described above, assuring the VIN shows clearly in the photograph of the TECH2 screen, and check to see if the vehicle has the latest released calibration. If the latest released calibration is not installed in the vehicle, the part numbers will not match , and the CVN's won't either. E- mail the original Part Numbers and CVN's found in the vehicle on the TECH 2 to: [email protected] to check if the calibration and CVN matches a previous release. Recalibrate with the latest released cal and re-check against the part numbers and CVN's that are released.


Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
__________________

[Bill@HPTuners]

Good read can be found here http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...ght=end+tuning

[LT1GMC]

That is a good read, thank you. I asked mainly to be aware, and also to let you guys know incase this was something new, or a new position GM is taking. I don't expect anyone else to fix what I caused myself, but the dealership closest to me, (that I do NOT buy from anymore), is so incompentent that when trying to fix my new 6 cyl 2WD Traiblazer that their own test showed got 10.3 mpg, they told me 4Wd vehicles get worse mileage and winter causes worse mileage too. 10.3 on a 16/22 epa rated TB.
They also denied warrenty on a friends Cobalt clutch, because the front tires were thin (hadn't been rotated or had pressure checked often enough, college girl's car), when the actual problem I showed them was a leaking clutch slave throwout assembly. They said abuse. That little 4 cyl car had NO rubber traces inside the wheelwells, no posi to make the tires wear equal side to side, not enough power to spin on dry pavement, but they were adamant it was abuse.

[Bill@HPTuners]

With GM's new warranty extension they are really just trying to cover their butts in reality, and for the most part warranties don't matter much from what I can tell.

I was at the local Dodge dealer getting some warranty stuff done on my minivan(hold the laughter please) and overheard one of the supervisors telling someone who's transmission took a dump(under their 8 year/80k powertrain warranty that they offered a year or two ago) and they are still going to charge the person some $1200 because the radiator took a dump at the same time so they basically told them "well we could just as easily blame the radiator for taking out the tranny & not cover the warranty at all" so basically made it look like they were doing this person a favor by charging them "only" $1200 lol.

When it comes to doing anything to your vehicle while under warranty I'd be weary about it coming back to bite you, no matter what you are modifying or adding if they want to they can find a way to void your warranty or at least try very hard to void it if they want to.

I know I wouldn't tune a vehicle that I was concerned about having issues at the dealership with as its simply not worth it to have them deny warranty work for.

[driftnpow]

Dealers can be dogs when it comes to warrenty jobs, my manual trans minced 3rd and the syncro at 50000km - holden ute (alloytec 6sp)
yeah took couple weeks to sort that was fine, i dont thrash cause i havent got the money nor do i wanna flog my pride n joy, anyway they had replaced it at their cost, AUD $1500-$2k somethin from what i recall. was about a half a month later im up in the snow, irregular revs puffin a bit of smoke on accel, remembered friend told me that dead/near dead o2s can cause this sorta problem so i left it for the time being, next morning... big frost she wouldnt start, when she did spluttered and farted and smoked like a chimney.
took it to the closest holden dealer that day and threw it in for a service same time. crack in the exhaust manifold i was told, no stock to change it under warrenty, all good still did alright fuel to thredbo and then back to melbourne. dealer neer home, oh loose exhaust manifold, we really should charge you with this work but due to your loyalty and how small of a job we wont this time. PEH i thought, related to the gearbox warrenty change :P so yeah if they did go to charge me i woulda had words :P
guess its a marketing ploy, a way to make them look like sun shines from their butts. as you said there bill, u have to beware with warrenty, to keep your entitlements and your wallet.
Me these days tho i recon as long as you look after your wheels stuff em have some fun

[brianko]

Well, you all know the drill: Anytime the dealership suspects an aftermarket component/modification might be the cause of a warranty claim, they can deny repairs under the warranty or ask you to return your vehicle to its stock condition. It's just a risk we all take whenever we start modding our vehicles.

Here's an interesting question: It appears this system can determine *if* a calibration has been modified, but not the parts of the calibration that have been modified. So would a dealership be permitted, under law, to refuse *all* warranty claims based upon a modified ECM, or would they be forced to prove a specific correlation between a specific calibration change and warranty issue?

IANAL, but under Magnuson-Moss it's still the dealer's responsibility to prove that a warranty issue was caused by an aftermarket component. They cannot simply deny a warranty claim because of an aftermarket modification. (http://www.pacificp.com/dmax/magnuson_moss.htm)

Interestingly, this TSB appears to apply to only LS2-style controllers (2005 and up). Which means, until something to the contrary comes out from GM, those of us running on LS1-style controllers can continue to not have to worry about the dealership detecting modified calibrations.

So I don't believe the sky is falling yet.

--Brian

[qmarchi]

All of the conections are all the same or I don't know what your talking about.

[brianko]

I pick the latter.

[69lt1bird]

Most of the LS1 style controls will be out of warranty anyways. This is from the warranty booklet for the 2008 model year, they spell it our pretty clear, you gotta pay to play.

"Additionally, General Motors does not warranty
non-GM parts and/or calibrations. The use of parts
and/or control module calibrations not issued through
General Motors will void the warranty coverage for those
components that are damaged or otherwise affected
by the installation of the non-GM part and/or control
module calibration.
The only exception is that non-GM parts labeled
“Certified to EPA Standards” are covered by the
Federal Emissions Performance Warranty.

[69lt1bird]

What most people don't get or understand is that there are a bunch of emissions related components, including the ECM,PCM,VEM and Cats that are covered for 8 years and 80,000 miles.

Federal Warranty Coverage
• Car or Light Duty Truck with a Gross Vehicle
Weight Rating (GVWR) of 8,500 lbs. or less
− 2 years or 24,000 miles and 8 years or
80,000 miles for the catalytic converter
and the vehicle/powertrain control module
(including emission-related software),
whichever comes first.

[thehemi]

Here's an interesting question: It appears this system can determine *if* a calibration has been modified, but not the parts of the calibration that have been modified. So would a dealership be permitted, under law, to refuse *all* warranty claims based upon a modified ECM, or would they be forced to prove a specific correlation between a specific calibration change and warranty issue?

Look at it this way. I could have a re-tune simply for changing the tire size.
Maybe I slap that tune on before I take the car in for service? I neglect to
mention to them that the REAL tune I was running was lean as hell, no TM,
and shifting the tranny hard as heck. Oh, but the tune they SEE only has a
change for the tire size adjustment. From their viewpoint (devil's advocate),
once they know the ECM is not stock, *anything* could have been done...

[CRASHNBURN]

With GM's new warranty extension they are really just trying to cover their butts in reality, and for the most part warranties don't matter much from what I can tell.

I was at the local Dodge dealer getting some warranty stuff done on my minivan(hold the laughter please) and overheard one of the supervisors telling someone who's transmission took a dump(under their 8 year/80k powertrain warranty that they offered a year or two ago) and they are still going to charge the person some $1200 because the radiator took a dump at the same time so they basically told them "well we could just as easily blame the radiator for taking out the tranny & not cover the warranty at all" so basically made it look like they were doing this person a favor by charging them "only" $1200 lol.

When it comes to doing anything to your vehicle while under warranty I'd be weary about it coming back to bite you, no matter what you are modifying or adding if they want to they can find a way to void your warranty or at least try very hard to void it if they want to.

I know I wouldn't tune a vehicle that I was concerned about having issues at the dealership with as its simply not worth it to have them deny warranty work for.

So Bill, since you own a dodge minivan. Someday will it be a possibilty to tune them? I am asking because in the fall I will be getting the wife a dodge minivan also. The 4.0 motor.

[fastlimey]

Buy a spare PCM and programm and play with that one , then you have a untouched stock pcm to put back in at any time

[8850]

Based on what I am reading I better hold off on even a simple fan change on my 08 LS3! I would like the fan to come on a little sooner so I don't see 220* in heavy traffic. I would need to purchase two credits, as I've used up all my existing credts on previous cars. If this voids the warranty then I can't make the change.

[bigbrian442]

Is there a warning message in HPT that says " using this product may (will) void the warranty on your new car"? If not maybe there should be.

[JMHZ2401]

Is there a warning message in HPT that says " using this product may (will) void the warranty on your new car"? If not maybe there should be.

Why? Truly if you do not understand that adding mods (weather it is a intake, exhaust or tuning) can/could cause you warranty issues then you do not need to be tuning anyways.

[bigbrian442]

Why? Truly if you do not understand that adding mods (weather it is a intake, exhaust or tuning) can/could cause you warranty issues then you do not need to be tuning anyways.

Because there are people out there that expect the warranty to cover anything that happens to stuff. How many new cars break stuff at the track and get sent back to the dealer for a " warranty " repair. Some get turned down some don't. If the use of a product is going to effect the warranty on something, It's a good idea to let people know that before they use it. Yea, allot of it should be common sense. But putting a disclaimer on it might stop the few that have none.

[samy]

do not worry, return it to stock calibration before visiting you dealer after that you can return your tune

[PapitoGTO]

do not worry, return it to stock calibration before visiting you dealer after that you can return your tune

That will only work on mildly modded. If you are cammmed, turbo'ed, supercharged returning back to stock calibration might cause more damage on the way to the dealership.

[brianko]

That will only work on mildly modded. If you are cammmed, turbo'ed, supercharged returning back to stock calibration might cause more damage on the way to the dealership.

Of course, if that's the case, I think warranty issues related to your tune are the least of your concerns! Maybe throw a blanket over the S/C and hope the tech doesn't see it!