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Thread: 60lb Inj. Problem

  1. #41
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    Dewey, NO I am not going back to closed loop MAF......Not going to happen.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  2. #42
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EC_Tune
    I think what's going to have to happen is someone with an injector flow bench is going to have to flow a couple hundred of these bastard injectors so we know what their range and characteristics are. Until then we're all guessing with the best info we have at hand: NONE>
    Well, we have this:

    Specifications:
    Coil Resistance: 12.5 Ohms / High Impedance / High-Z (No ECM driver modifications required)
    Static Flow Rate @ 43.5PSI ( 300kPa ) w/Gas: 60 lb/hr = 630 cc/min = 453 g/min
    Static Flow Rate @ 87PSI ( 600kPa ) w/Gas: 85.7 lb/hr = 900 cc/min = 648 g/min
    Gain: 0.11ms/mg
    Offset: 0.055ms
    Turn on time @ 14VDC: 1.14ms
    Turn off time: 0.85ms @ 600KPa

    That should be enough for someone who knows these tables well to be able to calc what the tables should be. At any rate, I will be having these flow tested when they come in.
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  3. #43
    Супер Модератор EC_Tune's Avatar
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    You will have to have the flow tester give you values from 1 msec to 3 msec in .1 msec increments to see what the true flow rate (Low end) is.
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  4. #44
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    These things are frustrating me, damn injectors.. If I get It to run at 14.7 in Park then when it goes into gear it goes to mid 13's. If I get it to run 14.7 in Drive then when I put it in park it goes to Mid 13's. And sometimes my idle cells of the VE table see to have no effect when changing them in RTT? What the hell.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  5. #45
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    Normal and WO driving are within like 3-4% its idle thats being a PITA.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  6. #46
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    I messed around with all kinda of settings this eve, I cannot get my in gear and park afr to 14.7. Its either one or the other, I dont get it. Any takers?

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  7. #47
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    I am going to try going back a few steps tom. I wasnt having this problem at first.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  8. #48
    Tuner dewmanshu's Avatar
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    can we see the current tune you got going that is causing this? ( ihad that too, I sorta gave up since I got too busy to tune my own ride)

    btw, I didn't say go closed loop maf, just closed loop, screw the maf. Especially since you spent all this dough on 2 bar.
    2K ECSB 4WD 1500 Silvy 6.0L(swapped), 2600 Suncoast TC, TransTech4L80E, '02 PCM upgrade,Patriot Stg 2 Heads,TVS1900(2.8 Pulley),custom 224/228 568/571 114+4,meth inject to wet a 75 shot of nitrous,dynatech hdrs,gutted cats,4.1 gears w/Eaton LSP,HPT-EIO,DynoJet WB, and tuned by the seat of my pants.
    12.22 @ 110.75 blower/meth/110 (76*) (radix)
    11.66 @ 115.95 bower/meth/110/50shot (45*) (radix)
    11.35 @ 117.35 blower/meth/110/75shot (45*) (radix)

  9. #49
    Tuner dewmanshu's Avatar
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    I would like to see what ve cell you are in at idle/park and idle gear

    and then

    vacuum kpa for each of those as well (of course if you just give me the kpa of the ve we can just subtract it from 100)

    ooh, log pw in a histogram too.
    Last edited by dewmanshu; 09-05-2007 at 07:27 PM.
    2K ECSB 4WD 1500 Silvy 6.0L(swapped), 2600 Suncoast TC, TransTech4L80E, '02 PCM upgrade,Patriot Stg 2 Heads,TVS1900(2.8 Pulley),custom 224/228 568/571 114+4,meth inject to wet a 75 shot of nitrous,dynatech hdrs,gutted cats,4.1 gears w/Eaton LSP,HPT-EIO,DynoJet WB, and tuned by the seat of my pants.
    12.22 @ 110.75 blower/meth/110 (76*) (radix)
    11.66 @ 115.95 bower/meth/110/50shot (45*) (radix)
    11.35 @ 117.35 blower/meth/110/75shot (45*) (radix)

  10. #50
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    Idle in park, Idle in drive both the same VE cell. I have tryed messing with idle speed trying to get it out of that cell but still likes it. haha I post up the tune that is in the truck right now.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  11. #51
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    Here is the current tune and a log as well, I tried like 5 different tunes this eve. sooooooo. I dont know.

    Youll see that the IFR and Offset tables are a little off in the 70-80kpa area, I was playing around trying to lean it up some just seeing what effect there was.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  12. #52
    Tuner dewmanshu's Avatar
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    pat in the 400 and 800rpm min inj settings you have 1.27. Start ticking them down. Try 1.25, 1.20, ect until you see any difference. Same place to fix decel at this point as well, just higher rpm. (you know my disclaimer, may not fix it, but only try one thing at a time. And when something doesn't work, put it back before you try something else)

    Also, note that the short plse limit is 3.9x. So anything under that PW it will refer to the adder table and add the appropiate pw to the designated PW. DId that make sense? So you are idling at 1.8, the adder is adding some slop in there. So it really is trying for a lower PW, but the adder is adding some. Not much though.

    btw, wow man, I am not used to such low kpa readings. LOL
    2K ECSB 4WD 1500 Silvy 6.0L(swapped), 2600 Suncoast TC, TransTech4L80E, '02 PCM upgrade,Patriot Stg 2 Heads,TVS1900(2.8 Pulley),custom 224/228 568/571 114+4,meth inject to wet a 75 shot of nitrous,dynatech hdrs,gutted cats,4.1 gears w/Eaton LSP,HPT-EIO,DynoJet WB, and tuned by the seat of my pants.
    12.22 @ 110.75 blower/meth/110 (76*) (radix)
    11.66 @ 115.95 bower/meth/110/50shot (45*) (radix)
    11.35 @ 117.35 blower/meth/110/75shot (45*) (radix)

  13. #53
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    Do I need to lower that short pulse limit lower then 3.9x? I returned my IFR and Offset tables back to what they were the other day, and lowered the Min and default Injector pusles at lower rpm to 1.21. I also lowered the adder table a hair. Ill have to try it this afternoon and see what happens.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  14. #54
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    Well its a little closer now, Idle in gear is 14.2 or so and in Park 14.7-14.8 . I figured since that was doing something I would go to 1.115 for the min pulse however it didnt seem to make a difference when I did so.... My decel is alittle better now instead of 10.x's its high 11's to mid 12's. Decel Ill worry about later, I just want to get idle to where I am happy cuz I have to put about 200 miles on it this weekend. I am going to mess with my VE tom. Its pretty close so Ill fine tune it so i can turn on DFCO for the weekend.

    Dewey, do you have any good aggressive DFCO tables? I remember you were talking about it that day at josh's.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Sierraslt
    Does anyone have a good short pulse limit for these? Mine has 3.9 as a short pulse but I see allot of the cobalt guys have 2.0? How do I determine this?
    I got data from SIemens as far as how long it takes to fully open and close at 100KPA. That is why alot of us are using that number. as far as short pulse limit. if it is set to high then at idle your engine cannot comand a short pulse to achieve an idle at 14.7. I had short pulse limit set at 2.0 and then 1.11 for Min. PW and I found a very smooth idle but rich. at 11.0! set the pulse limit to 0.094 (GM had that) and the adder set to 0 as well and that changed everything. changes made to VE made an effect now. I think the min PW could be used as an extreme measure to smooth out idle. not sure if that is the right way to deal with it though. I am sure there are many opinions that may not agree with that concept. I thought if a idle is commanding 14.7 with 0.9 PW then why not make it the minimum.
    1/4 - 13.9 @ 101.6, Best 60ft 2.1840 Performance mods to obtain best times - GMS2 and a K&N drop in filter.
    But now GMS2 is SOLD Car needs more work with tune. 13.9 with very rough tune.
    GIMILI Drag Raceway September 29th or BUST

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by 03Sierraslt
    These things are frustrating me, damn injectors.. If I get It to run at 14.7 in Park then when it goes into gear it goes to mid 13's. If I get it to run 14.7 in Drive then when I put it in park it goes to Mid 13's. And sometimes my idle cells of the VE table see to have no effect when changing them in RTT? What the hell.
    read my last post I think it will help you alot
    1/4 - 13.9 @ 101.6, Best 60ft 2.1840 Performance mods to obtain best times - GMS2 and a K&N drop in filter.
    But now GMS2 is SOLD Car needs more work with tune. 13.9 with very rough tune.
    GIMILI Drag Raceway September 29th or BUST

  17. #57
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    hey ssnipes, are you gonna share the siemens data?

  18. #58
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    ^x2 We know that the turn on time @ 14v is 1.14 ms and that the turn off time @ 600kPa (rediculous) is .85. If I am understanding the theory corectly, that gives us an offset of .29 at 14v 600kPa. If we get the turn off time at 100kPa, then we would at least have enough info to model a portion of the offset table.
    Last edited by SJSchafer; 09-07-2007 at 10:25 AM.
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
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  19. #59
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redhardsupra
    hey ssnipes, are you gonna share the siemens data?
    You never did tell me if what ssnipes and I are doing with scaling down the IFR table and adding to the modifier is correct.
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
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    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJSchafer
    You never did tell me if what ssnipes and I are doing with scaling down the IFR table and adding to the modifier is correct.
    that's because it's stuff i'm still working on and not 100% sure of yet, so i'd rather not spread half-baked theories, but since you asked...

    i can tell you though that scaling down IFR is wrong. IFR table is a MANVAC based injector flow, and that's all it should ever be used for. if you want to correct it for voltage, use the voltage table. if you want to make up for short pulse imprecisions, use the short pulse adder table. do not fall for the trap of 'i understand one table so i will tune for everything with it.' the fact that short pulse fueling is in effect usually only under deceleration, does not mean you should use the 10-15kPa MAP row on the VE table either. the only time when i would stray from using IFR to do anything more than describe the estimated flow would be a case of a fuel system not holding up at WOT and dropping pressure (thus flow).

    IPW= AirMass/(AFRcommanded*IFR)
    to this IPW you're also going to add voltage offset and short pulse adder when it applies:
    IPWfinal=IPW+Offset+SPA

    of course if you have any imprecisions in the components involved, then the final IPW is going to be off as well. normally we assume that any change in IPW (which is what really causes the AFRwb to be different from AFRcommanded) is caused by the change in airmass, but if you look at the full version above, you'll see you have a lot of other 'suspects' that's why tuning with airmass will not get rid of all problems, until you get your offset and SPA's.

    what i'm working on is to figure out how to arrive at the last two, but it's not easy.