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Thread: 60lb Inj. Problem

  1. #1
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    60lb Inj. Problem

    I just installed a set of Siemens 60lb injectors, the problem is that I cant get them to idle anywhere near 14.7. They want to idle lean, 16.8-18.0. I have tried numerous different IFR tables and they still want to idle lean. Is there something else that I need to adjust for these injectors that I am missing? Hear is a copy of the last tune I tried.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

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    Using the IFR Spreadsheet it says that my IFR values should be from 72-79 but using that it is so lean the wideband just shows ----

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  3. #3
    Tuner dewmanshu's Avatar
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    Hey Pat, I am leaving for a pig roast, but at first glance...your injector offset is super super low. Is it stock? Chat with ya tonight.
    Oh and I have 72.3 in my return IFR table. You need to scale of course.
    2K ECSB 4WD 1500 Silvy 6.0L(swapped), 2600 Suncoast TC, TransTech4L80E, '02 PCM upgrade,Patriot Stg 2 Heads,TVS1900(2.8 Pulley),custom 224/228 568/571 114+4,meth inject to wet a 75 shot of nitrous,dynatech hdrs,gutted cats,4.1 gears w/Eaton LSP,HPT-EIO,DynoJet WB, and tuned by the seat of my pants.
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    Ok I think I got it pretty close, i messed with the min pulse, default pulse, offset vs. volts etc. Now it will idle at 14.7, and the rest of my fueling is pretty close. I think from hear Ill just tweek the VE some. However I do need to figure out how to get rid of some of the rich decel...

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  5. #5
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    on what basis are you changing the offsets/min/default pulses? have you changed short pulse adders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by redhardsupra
    on what basis are you changing the offsets/min/default pulses? have you changed short pulse adders?
    No, I was told to change my min.pulse because my min pulse of .745 was way too low for the 60's. What is your take on what I should do, I have no idea what kinda settings these Siemens 60's like. I am switching from the MultecII truck injector.

    Attached is a current tune

    Most of the fueling is pretty close with this tune, needs tweeked here and there but Very rich decel.
    Last edited by 03Sierraslt; 09-02-2007 at 09:17 AM.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  7. #7
    I've got the very rich decel too. I don't really know how to fix it the right way, so I'm going to try using DFCO to see if that will take care of it.

  8. #8
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    i dont know what to do with 60s either, that's why i was asking, i dont have any data that i know what to do with.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    I have been searching long and hard for the actual formula to determine the values that should be used in the offset vs volts ve kPa. I know that the injector offset is the difference between the opening delay and the closing delay, and that it changes with voltage. Also that different injectors model those changes just a tad differently. So where do we get the actual info to use for the offset tables? I see a ton of people who have the siemens 60s, and everyone is giving advise on how to tweek this table and tweek that table to try to get your AFRs to where they need to be, but who actually has the CORRECT info on these injectors?

    Same question can be had for the short pulse, min pulse and adder tables...
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
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    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  10. #10
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    I dont know, I talked to the dealer I got my injectors off of who was very helpfull ( this guy knows his fuel systems) as well as looked at some BIN's in the repository to see what many of the other vehicles seemed to like for the 60's. I found many many files that had the same min pulse etc. so I figured that it must be what those injectors like. I did some more tuning today on my VE with the injector settings I finally went with my VE table was very close from idle all the way up. Now my VE is back within -4 to +2 so I just have to do a little more tweeking. Also I am runing OLSD so I think that made my initial startup more sensitive to the fueling vs. a MAF setup.
    Last edited by 03Sierraslt; 09-02-2007 at 05:43 PM.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

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    I was told the MultecII's have a much faster response time then the 60's, my 44's used a min pulse of .745 and with the 60's they were misfiring due to the very low pulse and causing it to be lean. My offset table was also very low, once I raised these tables some my AFR came right in line. Before I was trying to play with my IFR table and it had no effect at all. Thats why in the first tune I posted you can see that my IFR values are very low.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Hmm. Most of the files I have seen for my car with 60s is way off. I am wondering who has the actual numbers from a reliable source. When it comes down to it, the correct AFRs under all conditions with the minimum help from the trims is what's most important, but to me going about getting the AFRs correctly is just as important.

    For example, my IFR and offset tables can be way off and I can make up for it with VE and MAF tuning. Eventually, the AFRs will get to where they need to be in OL... BUT, there are little transitional changes that happen even between MAP cells that cause tiny little lean spikes that begin little instances of knock that cost little bits of HP and throttle response. If that little blip happens just at the beginning of a WOT run...
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
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    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Do you mind if I take a look at your tables?
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
    Mods:
    I has a couple.

    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  14. #14
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    Well once I figured out the injectors setting that I though seemed to work, I started driving it and looking at my VE AFR error. My error % was very minimum so to me I take that as meaning that the injectors setting must be pretty close. But then again I am no expert.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJSchafer
    Do you mind if I take a look at your tables?
    Check out the tune posted in Post#6 above those injector settings are the same as I am currently running.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Here's what I got from the cobaltss.net forums:

    "Minimum Pulsewidth - the time it takes the injector to complete one complete cycle to turn on and turn off.
    so, 1.14ms + 0.85ms = 1.99ms"

    There is also some info there that says the jmin pulsewidt should be around 1.1 for these injectors and the adder used to "progressively ramp off pulse width at a slower pace". I beleave he was actually referring to the short pulse as opposed to the min pw, but I have a PM in to him for clarification.

    Also, I noticed that your offset table is straight-lined for the different volt levels. Most that I have seen are done a bit differently. Sorry I cannot give you better info than that, but I am working on it. If I have to take them in for flowtesting and get the numbers that way, I will. I should get them in the mail this week...
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
    Mods:
    I has a couple.

    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  17. #17
    Tuner in Training mikec5vert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03Sierraslt
    I just installed a set of Siemens 60lb injectors, the problem is that I cant get them to idle anywhere near 14.7. They want to idle lean, 16.8-18.0. I have tried numerous different IFR tables and they still want to idle lean. Is there something else that I need to adjust for these injectors that I am missing? Hear is a copy of the last tune I tried.
    I got the same issue with Mototrons 60lbs as well.


    -Mike

  18. #18
    Advanced Tuner SJSchafer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikec5vert
    I got the same issue with Mototrons 60lbs as well.


    -Mike
    Same injector
    '07 Cobalt SS/SC
    Mods:
    I has a couple.

    Questions about 60s? <-- click!
    How to tune for return fuel system <--click

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikec5vert
    I got the same issue with Mototrons 60lbs as well.


    -Mike
    I have them idling ok now.

    04 Sierra Denali,370,S485B, Built 4L80E, 3barOLSD, E85

  20. #20
    Tuner in Training mikec5vert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 03Sierraslt
    I have them idling ok now.
    Is your current file the second file you posted?
    Thanks,
    -Mike