Spark advance excessive for unknown reason?

[[email protected]]

Hi guys,

I keep receiving knock sensor errors and when I review my log some seem to be occurring at idle.....I'm reviewing one segment which shows idle 611rpm, map 47, speed & tps 0 but spark is 25.

At 0 speed & tps it should be the idle spark advance table referenced....which shows 4 degrees.....not 25.

Does anyone have some ideas on where any additional spark is coming from? The underspeed figures are no where near that large & the IAT table only subtracts as does the ECT table.

I'm just mystified why it shows that much advance - unless maybe a faulty sensor somewhere?

I also have knock sensors going off driving at 100k/h that I haven't been able to solve either.....but that I suspect is maybe knock sensors faulty.....but I don't know why spark would be so advanced at idle.

Add to that I also have large inconsistencies with the 02 sensors....at 50kh at 959rpm bank 1 is 117mv & bank 2 is 838! Does anyone know what on earth could be causing that? I swapped them recently too for new Repco ones. It's not only bank 1 that drops though...in other segments its the opposite. Ahhhhhhhh!

Any help is greatly appreciated. Cheers

[edcmat-l1]

Jeebus what's with all the recent posts asking for help with no tune file or data log attached??????? Post a damn log and tune file so we can see WTF is going on.

[[email protected]]

Sorry I wasn't really expecting people to be reviewing those...figured I'd be more likely to have some tips on where to look than uploading tunes and logs but hopefully i'm wrong then!

Here's my log the knocking at idle happened at 16 min mark...but it had already set off the ses light due to knock sensor earlier....I had got almost everything great but today was first day of a long drive cruising at 100 and basically every single time I got to 100 the knock sensors triggered the ses light. I kept pulling timing from the cruise areas of the main spark tables but same problem kept occuring every time I'd get back to 100.....at current settings it's lost so much punch in the normal driving areas of 1200-1800 at .24-.5 and it still triggers the knock sensors at 100!

The inconsistencies between the o2 sensors is confusing too....I think I'll have to replace the knock sensors but just wanted to check how or why there's so much timing in areas I wasn't expecting it.

[edcmat-l1]

You also need to list all the mods so we know what we're looking at. Does the vehicle match what the tune file says or is this a swap? Bone stock or modified? No one will know if the tune "looks" right if they don't know what it's for. A stock calibration looks drastically different than a cammed stroker motor with big injectors and big throttle body. Follow me?

[edcmat-l1]

idle timing 1.jpg

^^^ Screen shot of your data log.

idle timing 2.jpg

^^^ Your in drive idle timing table.

It's working the way it should. Problem is you're commanding that much timing.

[[email protected]]

Oh gees I keep darn confusing the map for cylinder airmass! ahhhh I've done it again, now it makes sense the timing figure is correct. Thanks for that!
I need a post it note on my laptop the spark tables reference airmass I think.

The car is basically stock just a small exhaust mod & kn airfilter.

The idle tables are 1 degree reduced from stock....I'm not sure why it would be detecting knock at idle with that advance - I thought maybe there was a crank or cam sensor awry that was causing some of these knock sensor readings but looks like it is just a faulty knock sensor then as there is no reason that knock would occur at idle with spark at mid 20s and it's always bank 1.

The varying 02 sensors is that normal? Was just something I noticed. THanks again for helping.

[edcmat-l1]

O2 sensor activity is normal closed loop operation.

I don't have a 2000 Holden file to compare it to but I don't think anything commands 27 degrees of idle timing. The park timing table looks normal. The in drive table doesn't.

The Y axis definition is labelled clearly.

[[email protected]]

The hsv tunes have less idle timing so I?ll try matching those to see what difference they make.
They have way more timing in the main spark tables though - where I?m also throwing codes every time I get near 100 - so perhaps I will just have to swap the knock sensors if I want sufficient advance in the main tables. Good opportunity to upgrade the intake manifold I suppose!

[SiriusC1024]

VE tables need to match. Looks like you've been adjusting Primary without failing the MAF. Main spark tables leave much to be desired. Fuel injector data looks suspicious.

[[email protected]]

Oh I didn?t know the maf needs to be failed to adjust ve?..that could be why I?ve had trouble getting consistent stft & ltft. Looks like I?ll back off some idle timing, fail maf & do some logging just to see what happens.
Injector data is all factory - anything in particular look wrong? Thanks..

[[email protected]]

Hi guys,

Been doing some reading on the forums and basically think I'll just go mafless now considering I have to do VE table that way anyway.
Only thing is I have the early reduced secondary VE table....which it seems the pcm will use once maf is failed.
I see there is a o/s upgrade option for speed density which is supposed to give a proper VE table going mafless which sounds like a good idea - are there any other advantages other than the real time adjustments or is the o/s upgrade not really worth it?
I was also planning to upload a patch from pcmhacking.net to try and add lean cruise at a later date....will upgrading the o/s interfere with any of that or have nothing to do with it?
Sorry for a million questions I'm still trying to piece it all together......thanks.

[kingtal0n]

Yep throw the maf away upgrade to the mafless desirable speed density ECU Like a stand-alone would offer bringing you that much closer to eliminating annoying OEM complexity and the air restriction and unique requirements of the maf. The more performance oriented you become the less OEM garbage complexity and aux systems you will wish for, to make the engine more simple and easier to tune and diagnose in terms of its control which is the main advantage of a Gen3 ECU - the simplest and easiest to boil down.


As for lean cruise you may find some hack or crack to do it using the OEM controls but if you are a decent tuner you could simply run the ECU in open loop thereby target any A/F ratio you wish for using a wideband sensor.
Here are some example targets from my various cars and computers and a template to generally start from,




Here is my open loop gen3 ECU wideband log


A drive open loop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y09lYL4Now


By eliminating closed loop and the MAF and other aux systems the ECU can become simplified and the fuel map can be maintained as a smooth performance oriented map. The closed loop algorithm will put spikes and constant corrections based on an sub-optimal routine and air fuel ratio, observe

You might think that this chemically perfect air-fuel ratio at which EGT peaks would be where we should always operate our engines, but you’d be wrong. Just because it’s chemically perfect doesn’t mean it’s operationally useful. It’s not the mixture that produces best power, and it’s not the mixture that produces best economy. So, it’s not generally the optimal mixture for flying.

For best power, you need an air-fuel ratio of about 12.5-to-1, quite a bit richer than stoichiometric, which occurs at about 100 to 125 degrees F rich of peak. This rich mixture burns somewhat dirty (due to unburned hydrocarbons), but it also burns faster which yields a bit more power. For full-power takeoffs, we use an even richer mixture for increased detonation margin.

For best economy, you need an air-fuel ratio of about 16-to-1 , quite a bit leaner than stoichiometric and so significantly lean of peak. Such a lean mixture burns very clean and reduces combustion pressure and temperature, which is great for engine longevity but at the sacrifice of some power and airspeed.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...aintenance-egt

reading
https://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20T...%20Tuning.html

Many people think that the leaner you go, the higher the EGT gets. This is also incorrect. Peak EGT occurs at stoichiometry- about 15 to 1 for our purposes. If you go richer than 15 to 1, EGT will drop and if you go leaner than 15 to 1 EGT will ALSO drop.

The narrowband sensors are not doing you any favors as you have realized already, they are there to maintain sub-optimal air fuel ratio which is good for nothing unless you are emissions compliant.
It is a great idea to find out how to enable a lean cruise or program one yourself using a open loop to more efficient leaner air fuel ratios which can conserve fuel and clean up carbon deposits and reduce carbon fouling of the oil etc...

[SiriusC1024]

More OL tooning tips from Dr Professor Wideband.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Cube

[kingtal0n]

As more and more people learn that narrowband operation is undesirable and that traditional methods from the early 90's are no longer optimal thanks to the invention of high quality wideband sensors they will graduate to open loop and eventually wideband to narrowband conversion controllers which bypasses the issue completely.


https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ow-Band-How-To


But you wouldn't know anything about that would you. Just like you don't know about analog offset and don't know how to read a wideband signal properly to tell if it is working correctly or not.

You could have saved the forum but instead you damned it with your circle jerking gay marriage to the lowest common denominator. Sell out

No respect for the disrespectful.

[[email protected]]

Wow thanks for so much helpful info!

That is an interesting proposition to run open loop....I guess I haven't had enough confidence in my VE tuning ability but if I had a wideband I probably would get a ve table looking pretty damn accurate. You have nice lean ratios in the cruising sections.

Here's my new mafless tune and log....seems to run pretty alright I have more work to do with the VE tables and the timing is a little conservative around the .40 airmass ranges at lower revs that I will work on. I still had a bit of trouble with knock at 100km/h but narrowed that down to the 1400 - 1600 rpm range .12 - .20 ranges where I pulled a bit of advance and the issue hasn't returned.

Does running mafless with the stock os use the low octane table as well as the secondary VE? Or can it still use both spark tables? I have my spark tables the same at the moment and the VE pretty much the same but for the reduced map rows in the secondary.

What's the go with the o/s hptuners upgrade does that allow use of 2 octane tables for spark?

Thanks again!

[SiriusC1024]

Wow thanks for so much helpful info!

That is an interesting proposition to run open loop....I guess I haven't had enough confidence in my VE tuning ability but if I had a wideband I probably would get a ve table looking pretty damn accurate. You have nice lean ratios in the cruising sections.

Here's my new mafless tune and log....seems to run pretty alright I have more work to do with the VE tables and the timing is a little conservative around the .40 airmass ranges at lower revs that I will work on. I still had a bit of trouble with knock at 100km/h but narrowed that down to the 1400 - 1600 rpm range .12 - .20 ranges where I pulled a bit of advance and the issue hasn't returned.

Does running mafless with the stock os use the low octane table as well as the secondary VE? Or can it still use both spark tables? I have my spark tables the same at the moment and the VE pretty much the same but for the reduced map rows in the secondary.

What's the go with the o/s hptuners upgrade does that allow use of 2 octane tables for spark?

Thanks again!

That advice is coming from someone who doesn't understand VE or how to put in correct injector data. Be careful how you go about things. There's the right way then there's the "tweak your tune for 5 years and bandaid it with the IAT resistor hack" way.

In that link he posted supporting his fantasy, people report issues with wideband conversions. Rightfully so. A wideband isn't a "super narrowband" but something else entirely. Just another example of how he doesn't understand the technology or implementation.

As more and more people learn that narrowband operation is undesirable and that traditional methods from the early 90's are no longer optimal thanks to the invention of high quality wideband sensors they will graduate to open loop and eventually wideband to narrowband conversion controllers which bypasses the issue completely.

https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...ow-Band-How-To

Further,
"...claimed that his own wisdom "so antiquates known knowledge" that a psychiatrist examining his behavior diagnosed him with schizophrenia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Cube

Don't drink the koolaid.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...nd-vs-Wideband
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...Tuning-off-EGT
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...k-Running-Lean

[SiriusC1024]

Oh I didn?t know the maf needs to be failed to adjust ve?..that could be why I?ve had trouble getting consistent stft & ltft. Looks like I?ll back off some idle timing, fail maf & do some logging just to see what happens.
Injector data is all factory - anything in particular look wrong? Thanks..

Your injector data is actually correct. Yes, MAF needs failed to tune VE. That's part of the problem you're having with inconsistency. When dynamic airflow biases to either MAF or VE they are reporting very different things. Secondary VE is reference when the MAF is failed. Try tuning CL SD then move to MAF. You'll be better able to see fueling issues in SD, so that's one reason why it's first.

[edcmat-l1]

Capt. Klingon is a total joke and should be completely ignored. He advocates complete hackery. He owns a clapped out LS swapped Nissan and claims he's a Doctor Professor Scientist. He should actually be banned for the nonsense he promotes.

All you need to know about the guy is in his own horrific toon. He's a complete joke.

uploadmetryboilingtime9-22-23.hpt


Just wow!.jpg

[[email protected]]

My previous reply doesn?t seem to have worked. I threw the maf in the bin once I tried mafless -
It was night & day difference!
And I?ve been able to add so much more mid range timing without knock too - the maf just not have been working correctly, it has so much more punch now and cyl airmass gets to .73 which is about .1 more than before!

I intend to slowly add a little more advance but I wouldn't bother going maf again now! Just have to decide what to do with the os upgrades are they much more beneficial?

[SiriusC1024]

Still, be sure to fail the MAF in the tune. Engine Diag>Airflow>MAF Frequency Fail High to 0hz. >DTC>P0101-P0103 to MIL on First Error. As you're tuning, don't forget to disable DFCO.

You should upgrade to the 1bar SD OS so that you regain the resolution of the Primary VE table. As I said, right now it's using Secondary. Another benefit of the SD OS is that Hi and Lo octane base spark tables can be referenced. With the factory OS and MAF failed only the Lo is used.