Looking for some help/advice on E38 Idle

[Allen Vos]

Hey guys, I just wanted to to let you all know after spending over half my weekend messing with the car, I now have it idling quite nicely.

In the end I should have just listened and kept most of the settings stock as I ended up putting pretty much all of those settings back to stock.

The only thing I really changed is

-any idle RPM tables
-Min and startup air flow
-reduced the aggressiveness of the spark over and under speed tables.
-base idle spark
-SOIT and EOIT timing
-MAF and VVE tables

I still have a bit of that pesky idle blip but now it only last about 5-6 seconds before it comes down to idle

I played with virtual torque and took quite a bit of torque out in the MAP areas where the car idled at and this is what reduced the idle blip.

So I now need to read up on torque logging and figure out how to plug those numbers back into virtual torque to do it correctly.

Ill include an Idle log along with the latest tune.

Please have a look guys and tell me what you think?

I know there is much more work to be done and I will have a wide band next week so Im thinking I can dial things in a bit easier.

Quick question though.

Am I able to dial in idle with a wideband using EQ ratio as opposed to using the STFT/LTFT from the narrow bands?

I'm pretty sure I can but thought I would ask first as it seems a lot easier lol

Would you guys be willing to critique the VVE table in the tune?

That for me was the hardest thing. I would like to know how I did.


Attachment 142558

Attachment 142559

[hjtrbo]

Yes, you know the cringe moment when the other half gets to say I told you so. Edcmat might be biting his tongue. It's all in good spirits of course.
Sounds like it's all heading in the right direction. Good stuff.
Greg needs to be working for GM as a calibrator, he likes to get that last 5%.

[Allen Vos]

Yes, you know the cringe moment when the other half gets to say I told you so. Edcmat might be biting his tongue. It's all in good spirits of course.
Sounds like it's all heading in the right direction. Good stuff.
Greg needs to be working for GM as a calibrator, he likes to get that last 5%.

Its all good man. Edcmat can gladly come on here and say " I FN TOLD YOU SO!!!" lmao I can take it.

I will say this, is that I got different advice from everyone and being it was all different, it was hard to know which way to go.

Of course I tried everything and really confused the hell out of myself and was second guessing everything.

So in the end it was you and Edcmat and Cringer I believe that were right.

But this is hardly the end of it, so I'm sure there will be many more posts on other things I need to tackle and I'm going to try my best not to get frustrated lol

If I do, just tell me where to go lol

[hjtrbo]

It's all part of the fun of learning.

There is the APC TPS tables that I'm not sure if they will influence your blip to get that last little bit out of it. Would need some testing and careful logging off which cells you're in. If you want you can start a new thread on that and see what we can come up with.

Just taking in smokeshows comments on the other thread and been doing some pondering. Follower i.e. setpoint tracking, it surely is referencing those tables in some capacity.

I know those tables do help immensely with off idle driveability on bigger camshaft cars. Greg loves them too.

[hjtrbo]

But all that circles around to the torque model again to lol. The chicken or the egg so to speak

[Allen Vos]

It's all part of the fun of learning.

There is the APC TPS tables that I'm not sure if they will influence your blip to get that last little bit out of it. Would need some testing and careful logging off which cells you're in. If you want you can start a new thread on that and see what we can come up with.

Just taking in smokeshows comments on the other thread and been doing some pondering. Follower i.e. setpoint tracking, it surely is referencing those tables in some capacity.

I know those tables do help immensely with off idle driveability on bigger camshaft cars. Greg loves them too.

The blip is something I would like to get taken care of but for now it starts and runs so nice I feel I have bigger fish to fry lol


Did you happen to check out my latest Log? What are your thoughts on it?



I should really focus on torque management and of course start a separate thread on that so I am not going in so damn blind going into it

I have watched cringers video on O2 sensor tuning and I should ask how important is that being my cam isn't all that big and worked fine with most of the factory settings?

Ill do it if it needs to be done but if its not necessary I wont bother.

See you all in the next thread lol

[edcmat-l1]

Edcmat might be biting his tongue.

I need stitches!! LOL

And some Tylenol for this!!

LOL

[Allen Vos]

I need stitches!! LOL

And some Tylenol for this!!

LOL

Get ready for my next threads bud LMFAO

[Allen Vos]

Just an update here guys, I was messing with the car dialing torque tables in for the idle anyways and now that I am getting a better understanding for it I took another look at the Torque/ Throttle Follower table and knowing it has torque values, I thought to myself my idle area for the old cam is 650 RPM and has a torque value of 11 ft/lbs. Now the new cam idles at 800 rpm and the torque value at 800 RPM is only 2 and 4 ft /lbs for park and neutral respectively.

So I though to myself since these torque numbers represent airflow maybe I should at least try and move the 650 RPM column over to the 800 RPM column and see what happens.

Here is my original stock torque follower table

Attachment 143018


Here is the one that I modded and flashed to the PCM.

Attachment 143019

The only thing I did was moved the 650 RPM column, one column over to the right and substituted a value of 33 ft/lbs in the old 650 RPM column

I also moved the old 800 RPM column, one column over to the right as well

So really Its still more or less the same as the stock table, just moved the idle numbers over.

What happened surprised me.

The idle blip I had been chasing around is pretty much completely gone.

The idle recovers so nicely now that and holds steady with no surging or dipping anymore.

Cold start idle flare ups have been significantly reduced as well.

I know there was a couple of you guys that said not to modify the throttle Torque follower table but even If I left it stock, it wasn't really stock as the new cam runs in a different spot on the table, so I felt it had to be changed.

There were a couple other things I noticed as well.

I had been messing around with my Virtual Torque tables at idle to get the torque numbers on both Airmass and MAP tables to be somewhere between 10-40 ft/lbs and had them pretty much spot on.

This change has given me negative torque readings on my idle now, so I will likely have to add some of that Virtual torque back in to get the torque numbers back into spec.

Here is the latest Tune and Log if anyone is interested in checking it out.

Attachment 143020

Attachment 143021

The other thing I noticed is the Integral air flow at idle is averaging 1.4 G/S of air being added so I should try shaving half a gram of the min air flow

[GHuggins]

Just an update here guys, I was messing with the car dialing torque tables in for the idle anyways and now that I am getting a better understanding for it I took another look at the Torque/ Throttle Follower table and knowing it has torque values, I thought to myself my idle area for the old cam is 650 RPM and has a torque value of 11 ft/lbs. Now the new cam idles at 800 rpm and the torque value at 800 RPM is only 2 and 4 ft /lbs for park and neutral respectively.

So I though to myself since these torque numbers represent airflow maybe I should at least try and move the 650 RPM column over to the 800 RPM column and see what happens.

Here is my original stock torque follower table

Attachment 143018


Here is the one that I modded and flashed to the PCM.

Attachment 143019

The only thing I did was moved the 650 RPM column, one column over to the right and substituted a value of 33 ft/lbs in the old 650 RPM column

I also moved the old 800 RPM column, one column over to the right as well

So really Its still more or less the same as the stock table, just moved the idle numbers over.

What happened surprised me.

The idle blip I had been chasing around is pretty much completely gone.

The idle recovers so nicely now that and holds steady with no surging or dipping anymore.

Cold start idle flare ups have been significantly reduced as well.

I know there was a couple of you guys that said not to modify the throttle Torque follower table but even If I left it stock, it wasn't really stock as the new cam runs in a different spot on the table, so I felt it had to be changed.

There were a couple other things I noticed as well.

I had been messing around with my Virtual Torque tables at idle to get the torque numbers on both Airmass and MAP tables to be somewhere between 10-40 ft/lbs and had them pretty much spot on.

This change has given me negative torque readings on my idle now, so I will likely have to add some of that Virtual torque back in to get the torque numbers back into spec.

Here is the latest Tune and Log if anyone is interested in checking it out.

Attachment 143020

Attachment 143021

The other thing I noticed is the Integral air flow at idle is averaging 1.4 G/S of air being added so I should try shaving half a gram of the min air flow

Kinda the same thing recommended before by taking out, but now you're getting it. I've actually said in some other post the torque model would be your solution for the blip There's actually still a lot more to it than this, but you're figuring it out... You're also now starting to see what all the torque model can effect and control

You'll need to add to the min air - 1 g/s should do it...

[Allen Vos]

Kinda the same thing recommended before by taking out, but now you're getting it. I've actually said in some other post the torque model would be your solution for the blip There's actually still a lot more to it than this, but you're figuring it out... You're also now starting to see what all the torque model can effect and control

You'll need to add to the min air - 1 g/s should do it...

Yes, you did make reference to torque settings.

I think the issue is that you guys are far more advanced than a beginner like myself there becomes a communication gap between someone trying to understand vs an advanced person trying to explain things. I myself am an individual that learns better by being pointed and shown what to do. This in turn helps a guy like myself understand things a little better. This is why I learn fast from the you tube videos online. I have picked up a ton of stuff from Cringer and Goat rope garage videos, but the more advanced stuff is always here on the forums.

The other thing I found frustrating was there were certain individuals on here that swore up and down never to touch torque tables or followers and they would be fine at the stock settings. Yet there were others like your self that said they needed to be touched. So I am sure you can relate to the frustration and not knowing who is right and who is not.

Your gonna laugh, but I was chilling on the computer the other night and had a nice toke off the weed pen and studying this stuff and all of a sudden the whole airflow/torque thing just kind of clicked in my head and I got it. And they say drugs are bad. LMFAO!!!! Granted there is so much more to learn I am sure.

I can attest first hand that massaging the torque tables and throttle follower does indeed make for a better running engine. This is exactly why I wont bring my car to a tuner and want to learn how to do it myself. I feel that 90% of tuners just throw your car on a dyno get it close enough for most people but don't put the effort into drivability and little blips here and there.

Do you think I went about the torque throttle follower the right way? Or did I just band aid something else so to speak?

On a side note, I think you are right about adding 1 gram of air to my min air flow. Do you think using integral air flow an accurate way to set the min air flow?

Reason I ask is because my min airflow is 10 G/S and my MAF,VVE and Dynamic air flow are all matching 9.4 G/S, idling at operating temp.

So going to 11 G/S seems a touch high?

There was something else I wanted to ask you Greg, but I will just post it in my other post.

[GHuggins]

Honestly I use integral and idle spark adaptive both for setting min air. Don't know if it's correct, but I try to go by what I see on the OE setups I tune. They nearly always average right around a (-.5 to -1) degrees of timing being pulled and integral near 0. This is average, so plotted over time for about a min or so. I also like to see right around 10 to 20 lbft of torque at idle on cammed motors. I'm ok with up to 30. They almost always end up right around 20 when things smooth out.

The torque model can only truly be dialed in on a dyno and having all of the losses to add back into it. There are ways to use other tables in the cal to get it really close. This is the method I'm using to dial in fifth gens, which is working rather well. AGAIN, ALL FUEL has to be dialed in first and foremost.

I don't know everything on this stuff. Been learning on it for over a decade now and still learning. I just go by what everything is showing me.

[Allen Vos]

Honestly I use integral and idle spark adaptive both for setting min air. Don't know if it's correct, but I try to go by what I see on the OE setups I tune. They nearly always average right around a (-.5 to -1) degrees of timing being pulled and integral near 0. This is average, so plotted over time for about a min or so. I also like to see right around 10 to 20 lbft of torque at idle on cammed motors. I'm ok with up to 30. They almost always end up right around 20 when things smooth out.

The torque model can only truly be dialed in on a dyno and having all of the losses to add back into it. There are ways to use other tables in the cal to get it really close. This is the method I'm using to dial in fifth gens, which is working rather well. AGAIN, ALL FUEL has to be dialed in first and foremost.

I don't know everything on this stuff. Been learning on it for over a decade now and still learning. I just go by what everything is showing me.

I have been playing with different torque numbers and there is a direct relationship between the integral air flow numbers at idle and the amount of torque put into the virtual torque tables.

Still trying to figure it all out but one thing I had noticed is when I added 1 gram to the min air flow it had "zero" effect on the integral air flow numbers.

I will say this. Again I am still trying to sort this out but have a better grasp on things but for whatever reason, changing the torque follower table cured my idle blip which was caused by the throttle opening up and adding air which caused a slight temporary rise in RPM ( 100 RPM).

For whatever reason when I logged torque after modding the torque throttle follower table my torque is reading on average (-5) to (-10).

I added 20% torque to all the virtual torque tables in my idle area, smoothed and interpolated the tables in both airmass and MAP tables to get torque back to 10-15 ft/lbs and guess what?

My damn idle blip was back. lol

I could see the relationship between integral air and the amount of torque added or taken away.

When the torque was more negative you could see the integral was not adding near as much air at idle as compared to 10-20% more torque

I'm going to shelf this for right now until I can get out the entire VE and MAF tables set right in case I am just chasing my tail.

Hopefully a good VVE and MAF curve will correct this.

But I will cross that bridge when I get there.

Either way its still running really nicely

The 5th gen stuff scares me lol apparently you need the torque spot on with those and can get away with a lot less on a 4th gen