I have to start over - Write Entire is SCARY!

[JumboShrimp]

Thanks Aaron. He takes small bites which is good IMHO.
The (A) Rev004 was 1 of 7. None started the car. They were all based on the OEM file you gave me (Thanks again for that!). Then he tried the same OEM file but 'blending' the VE table - the 'B' version. Still a NoGO.
What do you mean by 'build out' - I'm sure he knows but I don't.
Doing a Compare of either of them to the 3BAR SD file has MANY differences - tough to look at and digest them all. I tried and lost brain cells.

[blindsquirrel]

I do not understand the thought process that lead you to a supercharger, with a 1-bar OS and MAF. MAF sucks. MAF especially sucks the more modifications you have made. Even if set up for 'MAF only" it will still reference the VE table for transients. This is the wrong direction.

Why in the world wasn't it just updated with correct injector data in the 3-bar file that was working? This is a whole lot of shit to go through to avoid re-tuning the VE that had the wrong-injector stuff baked into it. Just tune the damn thing!

And right now I know exactly what you mean about trying and losing brain cells.

[RonSSnova]

I'm working on it. Agree that some start up settings were stock, the settings in the 3bar tune weren't created by me. I had to start the 3bar tune from what Jumbo had as the oem tune resides with ECS. Thats a story Jumbo can share if he likes.

Anyway, I've made those changes, as well as input a card maf curve from my tuning mentor, CDT, from his C5. That should at least get me in the ballpark.

Someone asked what the AFR is doing when it tries to fire. Sadly, his wideband recycles at every turn of the key because it's tied into the accessory circuit. When I tune from scratch, I have a traveling wideband that is on during cranking. More data is always helpful.

Appreciate you looking at this Aaron. Here is what I just sent him.

I absolutely know that this would be WAY easier if I were hands on.

Ron

[edcmat-l1]

The tune files are completely different. Why would you expect it to run? I don't get it.

Why would you not dial in your SD tune?

Why are you going back to a stock file? Did you de-mod the vehicle?

[JumboShrimp]

I do not understand the thought process that lead you to a supercharger, with a 1-bar OS and MAF. MAF sucks. MAF especially sucks the more modifications you have made. Even if set up for 'MAF only" it will still reference the VE table for transients. This is the wrong direction.

Why in the world wasn't it just updated with correct injector data in the 3-bar file that was working? This is a whole lot of shit to go through to avoid re-tuning the VE that had the wrong-injector stuff baked into it. Just tune the damn thing!

And right now I know exactly what you mean about trying and losing brain cells.

This all started with Ron realizing he had the wrong injector data in the file. Like I said - it ran OK but 'should' have the correct data for injectors. Several conversations with Bob from FIC, Ron and Mr Banish caused me to try a MAF in a 4" pipe. The term 'baked-in' was used a few times. Once he put the official injector data in the whole thing went to hell. That data apparently trickles down to many other tables / areas of the file and required a complete do-over if it was to be truly correct. None of us are happy with the current performance.
I know you don't like MAF but it seems like there's a LOT more to this if I want to keep the 3BAR and use the real injector data.
When you say 'just tune the damn thing' Where do you suggest starting if I keep the 3BAR? I don't know enough to advise any of these people - that's why I reached out here. You seem to have a handle on this and I've read many of your posts. Where would YOU start?

[edcmat-l1]

I'm with Squirrel on this.

I'd go back to your 3 bar file. Put your correct injector data in.

Better yet post your injector data here.

If you're concerned about stuff being "baked into" your 3 bar file, start over with a stock 03 Vette file, apply the COS and start over completely. Just put your injector data in and change only the basic tables to get you running again.

If you're not removing the blower, going back to a MAF is not the answer. GEN3s don't like to mix MAF with SD COS. They don't play well together.

Nothing about this makes sense. Even if the injector data is off, if the flow rate is off XX amount, you just scale your VE that amount. That should get you close enough for it to start. Even if the SPW and offset was off ALOT, it should still get you close enough to start.

Was there ever a 3 bar tune file with new inj data "no start" log posted?

How about posting a start up log with the wrong data, change the data, then post another log?

[Alvin]

It's a good idea to start from scratch IMHO.

[JumboShrimp]

I'm with Squirrel on this.

I'd go back to your 3 bar file. Put your correct injector data in.

Better yet post your injector data here.

If you're concerned about stuff being "baked into" your 3 bar file, start over with a stock 03 Vette file, apply the COS and start over completely. Just put your injector data in and change only the basic tables to get you running again.

If you're not removing the blower, going back to a MAF is not the answer. GEN3s don't like to mix MAF with SD COS. They don't play well together.

I appreciate that input - I'm sure Ron will as well. Where do you suggest starting? Everything was good til the Injector file was loaded. This file is what I got from FIC and it is the latest version for the DEKA Shorties.

660cc_FIC_Deka60_Short_03242022.xlsx

This should be what's in the 3BAR SD file I posted yesterday. I assume it was input correctly.

I am learning a lot - And it seems that the Gen3 P01 ECM really is part of the problem. Just too unsophisticated for this fancy stuff?
I can post the logs you edited for later today. - THANK YOU!!

Thanks you ALL for the help here!!

[gtstorey]

So, who is tuning this? Multiple tuners working at once isn't going to work.

If it was tuned with incorrect injector data and then the injector data was corrected, then it has to be retuned basically from scratch. The "baked in" part of this are all of the errors that "made" it work with all of the incorrect injector data. So the VE is incorrect and needs to be redone. If I know this, anyone tuning for money should know this.

[edcmat-l1]

For the sake of not having to go back looking for stuff can you post in one reply

The stock tune file if you have it.

The 3 bar file it ran on.

The 3 bar file with the new injector data.

Any corresponding data logs for any of those files.

[JumboShrimp]

Hi EDCMat

Here's some data - thank you for looking at it. I'll try to keep it in the order requested....

The stock tune file if you have it.
Stock_JumboShrimp that AAronC7 created

The 3 bar file it ran on.
'C'-3BAR Tune & Log - this file worked but had the 'wrong' data. The 'C' set ran OK

The 3 bar file with the new injector data.
'D'-3BAR Tune & log - this file was WITH the correct injector data but misbehaved. The 'D' set was awful.

I tried to insert these all in line but it didn't work as planned. I am VERY interested to see your (all you) comments.

To answer the 'how many people' question - It is just RonSS. 1 person. He is doing it remote which isn't much fun for him.

Thanks again for all this input - I TRULY appreciate it!!

[edcmat-l1]

^^^^ Nice job.

Not trying to be difficult but, I'm not looking for a stock tune file that was "created". I'm looking for the file extracted from your vehicle in stock form. It's ok if you don't have that, it would just be nice to have for comparison. I have multiple 03 Y body files it's just always nice to have the stock file that belongs to the vehicle. This is why I have everyone's stock tune I've ever tuned going way back in the way back machine.

I'll look through that stuff this evening or in the morning. It's quittin time!!

PS don't know how old you are or if you're into real "outlaw country" but the data log names remind me of an older song "Time off for bad behavior". David Allen Coe. That's stuff that don't get no radio play. He uses bad words n stuff LOL

[JumboShrimp]

EDCMAt - Thank you for the input - Forums like this are full of talented people that are generous with time & talent. THAT is priceless and I honestly appreciate your efforts.

This car has given Ron fits from the Git-Go. He's bust'n his ass to make it right but it IS an Odd-Ball combo. I know of only 5 people that LSA swapped a C5. Mine is a late '03 with the Stoopid C6 fuel system (don't get me started on THAT) which makes even Stoopid'r.

If you can point me (us) in the right direction I'll be happy to pay you for the time - looks like you do this for a living? Ron is good - he has an 8 second Nova Drag car that he DRIVES to and from the track -BIG balls! He has a lot of experience with tuning and especially the C5 / LSA with another guy that did this swap.

Look at post #8 > 15 for the reason I don't have my REAL OEM VIN matched Cal File. in a nut shell..

When this all started I sent my 411 ECM to a well known Super Charger shop on the East Coast for a 'Mail Order Tune' - I won't mention their name. When I got it back the car would not start - long story short - we went round and round - ugly - and he told me to pound sand. I never got the courtesy of an email attachment - 'here's your OEM file' because we send that to all our customers. Live n Learn? I am they reason they don't do Mail Order Tunes any more.

As far as my physical age? I'm 66 (huh?) and have been a hot rodder for a LONG TIME. Tuning with a screwdriver??? Long Gone!

Music? I'm a hard core Ska, Punk & Reggae fan - in that order. I have kids that are HUGE country fans. I'll ask them about David Allen Coe. The SKA bands use a LOT of fun words - nothing wrong with that.

Thanks again - do what you can. Send a PM if you need more from me. I just want to enjoy this fun car.

[aaronc7]

There's only a few diffs between C and D. Minor tweaks to VE table, min fuel, and the fuel to wall impact factor table.

The last diff is clearly wrong in the D file and likely causing your wonky behavior. Looks like something was fat fingered.

Screenshot 2024-05-07 182534.png

[edcmat-l1]

There's only a few diffs between C and D. Minor tweaks to VE table, min fuel, and the fuel to wall impact factor table.

The last diff is clearly wrong in the D file and likely causing your wonky behavior. Looks like something was fat fingered.

Screenshot 2024-05-07 182534.png

I would agree. Changing shit just to change shit.

[edcmat-l1]

This is an LSA in a C5. Does that mean there are LSA to cathedral adapters on it?

[edcmat-l1]

Late 03 Z06, LSA Blower, Phenolic Rect to Cath port adapters (OKW), P01 (411) PCM, ECS stage 1 Fuel pump plumbed like UPP does it (Regulator, feed into Schrader port, ECS Bulkhead fitting for return to Dr Side tank), Deka 60 Shorties, BTR Stage 3 PDS Cam, Long Tubes, All the Fix?ns, Stock Bottom End.
[B]

That answers my question.

[gtstorey]

I think somewhere in here he has swapped to another adapter, not that it really matters.

[RonSSnova]

There's only a few diffs between C and D. Minor tweaks to VE table, min fuel, and the fuel to wall impact factor table.

The last diff is clearly wrong in the D file and likely causing your wonky behavior. Looks like something was fat fingered.

Screenshot 2024-05-07 182534.png

That was a sad attempt to try something there. It's been gone for some time. we have way too many rev's.

[RonSSnova]

That answers my question.

I think somewhere in here he has swapped to another adapter, not that it really matters.

He did. Aluminum adapters that actually have a cutout for the injector spray. A start, but in my opinion after seeing the photos, that notch needed to be enlarged and the head clearanced as well. That's what I would have done straight away. Jumbo wasn't comfortable with that.

Thank you for pointing this out. I have said all along that we are fighting fuel puddle issues!

The whole MAF thing is simply an experiment to see how it runs that way. That's it.

Aaron, I took the tune you made and did 100% of what you just said. All settings from the SD tune that ran and drive pretty well went in it.
Added the correct injector data. (I need to mention, the two sets of injectors are very similar. The biggest diff was the Offset vs. Volts vs VAC table) And a MAF curve suggested by my tuner buddy.
Same result. Just burps once, then nothing.

Basically, tells me that the MAF curve is wrong.

I'll once again try some iterations on that.

That file and log below.