Idle Airflow w/ and w/o clutch engaged

[edcmat-l1]

In this screen shot the line graph, I've stretched out so you can view a full 10 seconds of run time.

At the far left the narrowbands start out well over 900 mv. The trims, at the same time, are nearly pegged positive.

The far right of the line graph, a full 10 seconds later, the narrowbands are 948 and 800 respectively, and the trims are still +38 and +15.

If you think that's proper injector control at low speeds, the rest of the conversation is moot.

[edcmat-l1]

Are you asking me? Because I honestly don't know the answer to that question. That's why I'm here.

I've been trying to tell you for 7 pages now.

[Alvin]

I'm just going to start telling my customers stalling is "just a quirk" and not bother with properly tuning the damn thing.

Good luck.. it's just getting comical at this point.

[phuz]

In this screen shot the line graph, I've stretched out so you can view a full 10 seconds of run time.

At the far left the narrowbands start out well over 900 mv. The trims, at the same time, are nearly pegged positive.

The far right of the line graph, a full 10 seconds later, the narrowbands are 948 and 800 respectively, and the trims are still +38 and +15.

If you think that's proper injector control at low speeds, the rest of the conversation is moot.

You're cherry-picking on a log I posted yesterday after severely changing some idle VE regions. Those were only changed to try to chase down the stalls caused by negative STIT. Those cells were put back to where they were. If you look at the logs that matter from a couple days ago, you would see that narrowbands were reading stoich in about 5 seconds with only a couple percent of correction.

I'm just going to start telling my customers stalling is "just a quirk" and not bother with properly tuning the damn thing.
Good luck.. it's just getting comical at this point.

Don't be a dick. My tuner had nothing to do with that. Stalling was a result of something I changed by zeroing out the throttle cracker table. I openly admitted that.

[SiriusC1024]

Are you asking me? Because I honestly don't know the answer to that question. That's why I'm here.

Huh uh I was asking edcmat how to do it. Would be good to learn.

[phuz]

Huh uh I was asking edcmat how to do it. Would be good to learn.

oh, my bad.

[edcmat-l1]

You're cherry-picking on a log I posted yesterday after severely changing some idle VE regions. Those were only changed to try to chase down the stalls caused by negative STIT. Those cells were put back to where they were. If you look at the logs that matter from a couple days ago, you would see that narrowbands were reading stoich in about 5 seconds with only a couple percent of correction.

I'm not cherry picking anything. Just pointing out data.

Changing your VE is not changing injector behavior. And 5 seconds to reach stoich is too long also. It should happen almost immediately. It does not take a factory set of injectors 5 seconds to reach stoich. That's what you're looking for. Factory like injector behavior.

Been a while since I ran into someone so hard headed.


You really aren't interested in hearing facts are you?

[edcmat-l1]

Are you asking me? Because I honestly don't know the answer to that question. That's why I'm here.

You're here for what? Not to learn anything of value that's for sure. You've done nothing but argue with people who know way more than you and apparently way more than "your guy".

[SiriusC1024]

I know you're reluctant to try the correct injection data per Calibrated Success. That would mean re-doing VE, and you already paid for that. It would be a good idea to at least try it and see if fuel trims stabilize like edcmat is trying to explain.

[edcmat-l1]

2 screen shots taken from your last posted logs.

1 shows the injector idle PW at 1.8 ms. That can't be right.

2 shows the fuel trims and narrowbands over a 10 second decel period and over that 10 second period they DO NOT get back to stoich.

Next question......

[phuz]

Been a while since I ran into someone so hard headed.

You must've been talking with my wife.

I know you're reluctant to try the correct injection data per Calibrated Success. That would mean re-doing VE, and you already paid for that. It would be a good idea to at least try it and see if fuel trims stabilize like edcmat is trying to explain.

I'm not against it and with regard to re-doing the VE, I can probably just apply a multiplier to a good portion of the map and get very close. I'll try to plug them in Sunday and mess around with it for a few hours and let you know.

[SiriusC1024]

No, you won't be able to get away with a multiplier. Offset will be changed, too.

- Return to idle/off idle problems is due to VE needing adjusted. Idle trims compensating are a symptom of that.
- Fuel injector data will allow for accurate airflow tuning.
- Tune with narrowbands because it was determined that the wideband isn't reliable in all conditions. The factory fuel trim algorithms are effective.

It'll work.

[edcmat-l1]

No, you won't be able to get away with a multiplier. Offset will be changed, too.

- Return to idle/off idle problems is due to VE needing adjusted. Idle trims compensating are a symptom of that.
- Fuel injector data will allow for accurate airflow tuning.
- Tune with narrowbands because it was determined that the wideband isn't reliable in all conditions. The factory fuel trim algorithms are effective.

It'll work.

That is correct. The difference won't be linear. It'll change the curve especially down low.

[phuz]

I took Ed's advice and put high vacuum on the BOV to see if there was any change in manifold pressure, and there was none, so no need to change the spring.

FWIW, this is the venturi I mentioned in another post and I would highly recommend one of these. Just feed it with shop air and it pulls great vacuum. Great for bleeding brakes, etc.

[eficalibrator]

I believe it's the middle one, but could be the one on the right. Definitely the Deka 60# Tall.

Attachment 138197

This should be the correct data set for tall Deka 60's from Fuel Injector Connection. It's based upon a set that I tested for them in late 2021. Don't forget that in any population of parts, there is always some variability. While this data is precise for the samples tested, your particular set may be slightly different, but it should be pretty close. If you want precise data for the 8pcs you have on hand, I have the ability to test them and generate plug and play data here.

A&A has some old data (NOT from me) on their website still, which is funny because Andy had me build base files for a bunch of his applications using the correct injector data and scaling. I can assure you that I built files using my own injector measurements.

[phuz]

This should be the correct data set for tall Deka 60's from Fuel Injector Connection. It's based upon a set that I tested for them in late 2021. Don't forget that in any population of parts, there is always some variability. While this data is precise for the samples tested, your particular set may be slightly different, but it should be pretty close. If you want precise data for the 8pcs you have on hand, I have the ability to test them and generate plug and play data here.

A&A has some old data (NOT from me) on their website still, which is funny because Andy had me build base files for a bunch of his applications using the correct injector data and scaling. I can assure you that I built files using my own injector measurements.

Before I dump your data in and begin the re-tuning process, would you recommend swapping to the Bosch injectors (as recommended by FIC) or is there not much difference in reliability to the Deka?

[SiriusC1024]

This should be the correct data set for tall Deka 60's from Fuel Injector Connection. It's based upon a set that I tested for them in late 2021. Don't forget that in any population of parts, there is always some variability. While this data is precise for the samples tested, your particular set may be slightly different, but it should be pretty close. If you want precise data for the 8pcs you have on hand, I have the ability to test them and generate plug and play data here.

A&A has some old data (NOT from me) on their website still, which is funny because Andy had me build base files for a bunch of his applications using the correct injector data and scaling. I can assure you that I built files using my own injector measurements.

Thanks for taking the time to settle this issue. That helps a lot!

So AA Corvette had you generate injector data, but they don't use it?

[eficalibrator]

Before I dump your data in and begin the re-tuning process, would you recommend swapping to the Bosch injectors (as recommended by FIC) or is there not much difference in reliability to the Deka?

I ran SD60's on my personal car for years. As long as you have the right data, it's no problem.

So AA Corvette had you generate injector data, but they don't use it?

A&A uses injectors from FIConnection. I'm not sure why Andy still has the OLD data on his site, but my data for them is more recent. I also gave Andy a few sample files where the scaling was done correctly to allow for higher injector (and MAF) flow rates. Again, I'm not sure if he's actually releasing those files or not.

[phuz]

Plugged in Greg's numbers, took an educated guess at my scalars for the VE table, and think I got pretty close with STFTs being mostly single-digit. I have some refining to do, but am putting this log up because at one point I came to a stop and it just died out. Throttle cracker and follower were both at zero, so the adaptive idle should've kicked in, but you can see STIT and TPS don't budge as RPMs drop to zero. I also notice that nowhere in the log do I see STIT go to a positive value.

[SiriusC1024]

Look at STFT's. Lean on low end, rich on the high end. That's why you can't just do a scalar. Have to retune.