2011 cts-v trying to improve mpg

[PGA2B]

my tuner is really popular not doubting his tune at all but some have said it is a little spicy targeting .82 lambda 12.03 afr and 18 degrees of timing on 91 octane. i do not get any knock retard but would also like to add some saftey margin to tune so its not so much on kill mode as i just rebult my bottom end due to breaking a piston ringland only 400 miles on motor since rebuild first fired it up 3 days ago. 11.5? afr too rich hould i go somewhere in the middle like 11.7? is 18 degrees safe or should i back it off a degree or 2

He has also desensitized your knock sensors, so you may not see KR but it could possibly be there.

I run mine at 11.47 AFR or .78 Lambda and 18* of timing on 93 pump gas. When I was in AZ I could only run 16-17* of timing on 91 pump gas.

I sent you my last revision where I added timing.

[JayRolla]

I'm surprised a "popular tuner" would give you that low of timing in the cruising areas....and I wondering why your timing table isn't more like a waterfall slowly falling as load goes up versus falling off a cliff starting at about .44 g

Im not surprised at all. I know exactly whos tune it is just by looking at the timing map. LOL.

[JayRolla]

I would follow everyone's advice. Look at PGA2B timing maps. I would richen PE to 1.28 for Gas and E. I run a more stock timing map down low and 18* WOT on gas. I then run about 25* on E, did not notice much gains on the street with my draggy adding more. You want to be safe on a mail to order tune. They can't find minimum best timing/torque without a dyno or a least some draggy numbers with controlled variables like same road, temp, etc... I would also not desensitize the knock sensors unless you know for a fact your getting some false knock.

[sgod1100]

Im not surprised at all. I know exactly whos tune it is just by looking at the timing map. LOL.

mmmmhmmmm...lol.

[edcmat-l1]

Wow. Another calibration by a "pro" that looks like he doesn't know what he's doing. Why TF would you knock over 15 degrees of low load timing out of anything???

And since when does adding 10 degrees of WOT flex fuel timing make sense? That must be some magical E!! Unicorn pee maybe???

I know the OP isn't running FF but the way that timing table is setup looks like the mystery tooner has no clue. Not to mention the way the knock sensors are setup. That thing probably won't pick up knock if you hit it with a hammer!!

[JayRolla]

Wow. Another calibration by a "pro" that looks like he doesn't know what he's doing. Why TF would you knock over 15 degrees of low load timing out of anything???

And since when does adding 10 degrees of WOT flex fuel timing make sense? That must be some magical E!! Unicorn pee maybe???

I know the OP isn't running FF but the way that timing table is setup looks like the mystery tooner has no clue. Not to mention the way the knock sensors are setup. That thing probably won't pick up knock if you hit it with a hammer!!

HAHA, yeah the knock sensor tuning seems very strange. I wonder if he was picking up what he though was false knock. But to be fair, E is magical unicorn pee!!! LOL. Many years back I ran a 4 banger with 9.8:1 OEM pistons/rods/crank, 30psi, 28* timing, .80 lambda with never a blip of knock and it had over 330k miles. Ran for probably 8 years like this and bet its still going somewhere.

[sgod1100]

Wow. Another calibration by a "pro" that looks like he doesn't know what he's doing. Why TF would you knock over 15 degrees of low load timing out of anything???

And since when does adding 10 degrees of WOT flex fuel timing make sense? That must be some magical E!! Unicorn pee maybe???

I know the OP isn't running FF but the way that timing table is setup looks like the mystery tooner has no clue. Not to mention the way the knock sensors are setup. That thing probably won't pick up knock if you hit it with a hammer!!

lol...and he is quite popular option with the CTSV crowd. I'm actually adding 9- 9.5 deg of timing while I'm on E though too...lol. This is because there's an area of the spark table that I can't run more than 13 deg of timing (on 93) or else my knock sensor will trip. So my total FF timing is still around 22ish deg.

[edcmat-l1]

HAHA, yeah the knock sensor tuning seems very strange. I wonder if he was picking up what he though was false knock. But to be fair, E is magical unicorn pee!!! LOL. Many years back I ran a 4 banger with 9.8:1 OEM pistons/rods/crank, 30psi, 28* timing, .80 lambda with never a blip of knock and it had over 330k miles. Ran for probably 8 years like this and bet its still going somewhere.

I've been tuning E85 as well as Methanol for many years. There's not much anyone on this board can tell me about either that I don't already know.

lol...and he is quite popular option with the CTSV crowd. I'm actually adding 9- 9.5 deg of timing while I'm on E though too...lol. This is because there's an area of the spark table that I can't run more than 13 deg of timing (on 93) or else my knock sensor will trip. So my total FF timing is still around 22ish deg.

Even at peak torque that doesn't sound right. That's a huge difference.

[sgod1100]

I've been tuning E85 as well as Methanol for many years. There's not much anyone on this board can tell me about either that I don't already know.



Even at peak torque that doesn't sound right. That's a huge difference.

4800-5200 rpms at approx 1.68-1.76g

[JayRolla]

I've been tuning E85 as well as Methanol for many years. There's not much anyone on this board can tell me about either that I don't already know.



Even at peak torque that doesn't sound right. That's a huge difference.

Compared to 91 we get here in CO its pretty magical IMO. I will never call myself an expert since I have really only tuned my own stuff on E and few others. But I have been doing it a long time. My 1st tune on E was age 16 over 23 years ago on an SAFC. Timing map would be stuck in low load, so it had insane timing. Yet to lose a motor, knock on wood. LOL.

As for my flex fuel table I am also running 7-8* over my gas tune. Seemed to have pretty good gains on the draggy to that point and then not much after. Still need to rent some dyno time to find MBT but using draggy seems to work pretty well.

[edcmat-l1]

Compared to 91 we get here in CO its pretty magical IMO. I will never call myself an expert since I have really only tuned my own stuff on E and few others. But I have been doing it a long time. My 1st tune on E was age 16 over 23 years ago on an SAFC. Timing map would be stuck in low load, so it had insane timing. Yet to lose a motor, knock on wood. LOL.

As for my flex fuel table I am also running 7-8* over my gas tune. Seemed to have pretty good gains on the draggy to that point and then not much after. Still need to rent some dyno time to find MBT but using draggy seems to work pretty well.

I've tuned thousands of vehicles, literally, including hundreds of LSA/LS9s. I have a couple shops on the west coast I email tune for on the regular. I'm familiar with 91. I can't get 8 degrees of FF timing in anything. But I stop at the point of diminishing returns. I use a dyno not a draggy. I won't WOT tune a forced induction vehicle on the street. Has to be on a dyno. I have to be able to measure the difference in 1 degree of timing.

I've been a member here for 17 years. My career started in the mid 80s. I'm an ex-GM driveability tech from the early 90s. I was working on the LTs and then the LSs when they were brand new. I'm old and been doing this a long damn time.

[JayRolla]

I've tuned thousands of vehicles, literally, including hundreds of LSA/LS9s. I have a couple shops on the west coast I email tune for on the regular. I'm familiar with 91. I can't get 8 degrees of FF timing in anything. But I stop at the point of diminishing returns. I use a dyno not a draggy. I won't WOT tune a forced induction vehicle on the street. Has to be on a dyno. I have to be able to measure the difference in 1 degree of timing.

I've been a member here for 17 years. My career started in the mid 80s. I'm an ex-GM driveability tech from the early 90s. I was working on the LTs and then the LSs when they were brand new. I'm old and been doing this a long damn time.

Not questioning your expertise. I might actually be past diminishing returns on my timing since I cant verify on a dyno. I feel using the track, draggy are the next best thing if you don't have a dyno. Add 2* degree and notice a lot quicker time and MPH is pretty good indication that its making more power.

If you don't mind me asking, since you have done so many LSA's, on a SBE and cam what timing figures are you usually running before diminishing returns on e85? I know its different for each engine, tune, mods etc... but there has to be a pretty steady range say between 20-24* or 22-26*. Or is this something you want to keep to yourself like most tuners out there (which I understand)?

I started at 21* on E which was 3* above my pump gas timing and added 2* watching my times to see if they increased. I noticed a good amount of power till about 27* and then backed down back to 25*. Does this sound like way too much timing to be safe on e85? I know these engines run a lot of timing from the factory. My 1st logs when stock was hitting 27ish* at around max tq and 26* at redline. At my altitude I was hitting maybe 6.5psi and now 12psi with my pulley at redline.

[sgod1100]

I've tuned thousands of vehicles, literally, including hundreds of LSA/LS9s. I have a couple shops on the west coast I email tune for on the regular. I'm familiar with 91. I can't get 8 degrees of FF timing in anything. But I stop at the point of diminishing returns. I use a dyno not a draggy. I won't WOT tune a forced induction vehicle on the street. Has to be on a dyno. I have to be able to measure the difference in 1 degree of timing.

I've been a member here for 17 years. My career started in the mid 80s. I'm an ex-GM driveability tech from the early 90s. I was working on the LTs and then the LSs when they were brand new. I'm old and been doing this a long damn time.

My pump gas tune doesn't have much timing in it (lowest being the 13 deg at the 4800-5200 rpm) any higher and my knock sensor go off. So if I add 8-9 deg i'm still only at 21-22 deg of timing on ff. From what I've read with these cars there are guys running way more total timing than that

[edcmat-l1]

Not questioning your expertise. I might actually be past diminishing returns on my timing since I cant verify on a dyno. I feel using the track, draggy are the next best thing if you don't have a dyno. Add 2* degree and notice a lot quicker time and MPH is pretty good indication that its making more power.

I agree using a draggy is better than nothing.

If you don't mind me asking, since you have done so many LSA's, on a SBE and cam what timing figures are you usually running before diminishing returns on e85? I know its different for each engine, tune, mods etc... but there has to be a pretty steady range say between 20-24* or 22-26*. Or is this something you want to keep to yourself like most tuners out there (which I understand)?

It all depends on the amount of boost, I'm sure you know that, but you're pretty close. I'm a low 20s kinda guy.

I started at 21* on E which was 3* above my pump gas timing and added 2* watching my times to see if they increased. I noticed a good amount of power till about 27* and then backed down back to 25*. Does this sound like way too much timing to be safe on e85? I know these engines run a lot of timing from the factory. My 1st logs when stock was hitting 27ish* at around max tq and 26* at redline. At my altitude I was hitting maybe 6.5psi and now 12psi with my pulley at redline.

Yes from the factory they have a lot of timing in them, but you have to consider all the adder/subtractor tables and then factor in the knock sensors. They're there for a reason.

25* sounds kinda high to me but 12 psi isn't all that much boost. I typically setup the ones I build at 15 or so.

AFR plays a role in how much timing the engine will tolerate also.

[edcmat-l1]

My pump gas tune doesn't have much timing in it (lowest being the 13 deg at the 4800-5200 rpm) any higher and my knock sensor go off. So if I add 8-9 deg i'm still only at 21-22 deg of timing on ff. From what I've read with these cars there are guys running way more total timing than that

I have a method/formula/process whatever you want to call it, for everything I do. I've done this long enough I know what results to expect and have a plan if they deviate.

I do not automatically start removing timing if an engine shows knock retard. I ain't skeered of knock retard. A certain amount of knock retard is normal. The stock setup is too sensitive. I've figured out how to set them up. I set them all the same and if I end up with more KR than I think is normal for whatever combo, I start looking for reasons why. Most of the time I find or fix something that cures whatever ails said vehicle.

If you're tuning with the result being zero knock retard you're either detuning or setting your knock sensors up to not work properly.

[JayRolla]

I agree using a draggy is better than nothing.



It all depends on the amount of boost, I'm sure you know that, but you're pretty close. I'm a low 20s kinda guy.



Yes from the factory they have a lot of timing in them, but you have to consider all the adder/subtractor tables and then factor in the knock sensors. They're there for a reason.

25* sounds kinda high to me but 12 psi isn't all that much boost. I typically setup the ones I build at 15 or so.

AFR plays a role in how much timing the engine will tolerate also.

Thanks for the info. I really appreciate it. I was shooting for 14-15psi but forgot about at my 6000+ ft altitude I loose almost 3psi. I am used to turbos where I just turn it up. Going to get a lower pulley here soon to try and get another 3psi. That 12psi is at redline. Its more around 10psi throughout most the power band. I am going to try and rent some dyno time here soon and see how much timing she likes.

[JayRolla]

I have a method/formula/process whatever you want to call it, for everything I do. I've done this long enough I know what results to expect and have a plan if they deviate.

I do not automatically start removing timing if an engine shows knock retard. I ain't skeered of knock retard. A certain amount of knock retard is normal. The stock setup is too sensitive. I've figured out how to set them up. I set them all the same and if I end up with more KR than I think is normal for whatever combo, I start looking for reasons why. Most of the time I find or fix something that cures whatever ails said vehicle.

If you're tuning with the result being zero knock retard you're either detuning or setting your knock sensors up to not work properly.

I completely agree with this. Almost every stock car ive tuned on 91 up here I have seen detonation. Especially in the mid to max tq range. Knock sensors pull a little timing and it goes away. If the knock doesn't go away at all and stays throughout the pull that's when I start taking some timing out. But 1-2* pulled timing and then knock goes away is nothing crazy and pretty normal from what I have seen on stock tunes. IMO. My gas tune sees blips of 1-2* knock in the mid range sometimes.

[sgod1100]

I have a method/formula/process whatever you want to call it, for everything I do. I've done this long enough I know what results to expect and have a plan if they deviate.

I do not automatically start removing timing if an engine shows knock retard. I ain't skeered of knock retard. A certain amount of knock retard is normal. The stock setup is too sensitive. I've figured out how to set them up. I set them all the same and if I end up with more KR than I think is normal for whatever combo, I start looking for reasons why. Most of the time I find or fix something that cures whatever ails said vehicle.

If you're tuning with the result being zero knock retard you're either detuning or setting your knock sensors up to not work properly.

Well, if anything I'm on the safe side of things for my pump gas tune then.