Orientation from experts on troubleshooting

[Benjamin Lopez]

We live in Spain, EU. Friend of mine purchased R/T 2018 automatic challenger and the car came with some problems the dealer could not solve, my friend issued a legal claim but not much hope dealer will solve the car problem. I am trying to help him identify problem and solve. Opinions and assessment is highly appreciated here:

CAR HISTOTRY: imported in northern Europe, the car came from salvage in US (flooded up to gear stick). We have no idea how it was repaired and put back to service.

SIMPTOMS: 1) The car shakes very hard back/forth for few seconds when releasing pedal on high gears. (feels like not capable to adjust torque during the shifts on low loads (releasing pedal)) 2) the engine does not feel soft when driving (when speeding) 3) It gives DTC?s continuously P0172, P0175 & from time to time P0452.

TRENDING OBSERVATIONS ON SCANNER: See attached 01 to 06 trends, the name of each trend indicates which minute and second to look at. Observations: A) Fuel enrichment is on the moon (.0392) and activated at very low pedal/throttle (around 50% each) while in the car file it is set to .0161 enrichment at pedal 3.15volts B) The engine knocks on both side banks around 3000 to 5000 rpm specially around 4500rpm event with this high enrichment, while spark advance looks per OEM and we tried with higher octane and don?t see improvement. C) LTFT is very negative values at all regimes.

ATTACHED: Original PCM File, comparison 2017 RT file for reference, 01 to 06 scanner trends (in file name it is indicated the minute & second when the engine shake is found)

QUESTIONS:
1) what can be the explanation that we see at ODBII a .0392 enrichment when the PCM file is set to .0161? (also at a much lower pedal than set in the file?)
2) does anybody around have a 2018 Challenger RT stock file available to compare apples to apples and confirm our actual file is totally stock?

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: initially we suspected the car had a bad tuning by someone, and went to Chrysler to reset original file, but the car continued similar symptoms. The Chrysler file restore was done after trend file 03 Miguel3 and before 04 Miguel4. We know the PCM has been manipulated as the check engine light popped up only right after the Chrysler file restoration (dealer sent it somewhere to remove the light we suspect). Dealer says O2 probes were replaced but we dont trust him, however we measured resistance and looks within normal values both sides. We checked evap valve and looks to seal closed well. We did not yet start checking other hardware but so far we have in the list the following checks to be done soon: sparkplugs spec, injectors spec and throttle body spec and diameter. The car has stable iddle and do not listen any evident air ingestion. The car starts up well in cold and hot conditions and drives quite well when driving soft and slow: does not feel so good when driving more sportive. The car just passed here a very severe periodic emissions test which is done at iddle and accelerating to 3000rpm on P/N.

Thanks to everybody for any ideas, knowledge sharing, etc. Very appreciated!

[N2speed]

Car is running very rich, Are you sure it has factory injectors? almost looks like it has an aftermarket cam in it,

[f.creek-ranch]

Do you have unplugged all module connectors?
If connectors are corrosive multiple errors can occur.
Use AlfaObd or Appcar to read Dtc, it will tell you if there are any communication problems.

[f.creek-ranch]

The curves from the O2s are not OK, they got peaks and fall down rapidly.

Last time I saw theses fuel trims the connector of an injector was loosen.

One not working Injector can do theses things, the fuel trims are contrary and in open loop you get lean conditions.

Moe ;-)

[Benjamin Lopez]

thanks guys. Yes I believe we have the right injectors, I have a photo the guy sent me after lifting a rail and its Chrysler 05037479AD I think this injector updated the AC about in 2018 when the car was manufactured. (If my research is correct). We did not look to all of them, maybe this is a later step if we don?t find the problem to verify each one for the same part number.

F.creek: can I have a lose injector and have a perfect iddle and good cold and hot start up? also how do you see the two banks comparing them: doesn?t it look like they behave very parallel? (Like problem affecting them identically?... like a common cause?). I will have to investigate and study on the AlfaObd or Appcar to read DTCs, would these give more info than the MPVI2+? why because the MPVI2+ does not cover for finding canbus errors and those you mention do?

N2Speed mentions aftermarket cam.... we have no idea what the car history is but yes we suspect somebody could have upgraded it wrongly.... how can I verify if the cam is original? opening the valves cover gives access to any PN marking? or how?

[LilSick]

highly unlikely that the car does not have the factory camshaft

it was flooded half way up the doors tho and sat like that for how long???

[f.creek-ranch]

Disconnect the injectors one after another.

You will see the difference in the log.

And yes, the car can idle cold and warm, you hear the difference when you disconnect them.

Just a simple thing.

[Benjamin Lopez]

We don?t know for how long it was flooded LilSick: we just saw the VIN Salvage report saying that and we know on the dates Releight NC suffered a severe storm (where the car comes from). We also don?t know what they replaced after that because my understanding is they import many of these salvage cards from Lithuania and there they have a lot others for parts and they replace whatever needed to run it. This car replaced a lot of electronic components (we see their VIN stickers do not align to the original car), we know replaced the full interior as in salvage photos it was fabric and this one now mounts leather.

F.creek understood, I think that is a very good advise: I would not try disconnecting 1 injector on a 4 cylinder engine (99.9% of cars here) because if it does iddle nice it is impossible it does have a faulty injector, but V8 is different animal, point taken: I will try that for sure. Probably priority right after checking fuel pressure.

The guy lives 3.5hours far from me and he does not know much on how to do things, so right now I give him some clear instructions on what to do and how to take the logs: I don?t see he will unplug injectors... . He said he will bring the car on the week July 24th so I can put hands on it. He is checking a workshop where he can check fuel pressure but maybe I will have to do it here also because I don?t expect a workshop here to have the SAE 3/8 fuel spool to check pressure on a chrysler: I may need to order one on Amazon-US: they work pretty good to bring things here into EU.

[f.creek-ranch]

Do the injectors first.

A bad fuel pump doesnt normally produce this symptoms, but its not impossible.

Good luck.

[Benjamin Lopez]

Hi, back here, Miguel arrived with his car and did put an eye on it today, he will stay here all the week to try to solve this.

- Checked fuel pressure: 58psi constant (observe small gage vibration)
- Checked air leaks: with water and with starter spray over the inlet manifold and throttle body: no engine reaction. No sound of leaks neither.
- Removed spark plugs, see photo. Observed all good color but chamber 5, 7 and also a bit 6 too clean (need somebody with experience to give opinion, per photo)
- Found MAP sensor very lose (dancing on the seat), replaced its O-ring and installed it tighter.
- Listen injectors pulse, they all sound uniform in the 8 chambers at idle.
- Swapped fuel tank cap with my car.
- Swapped O2 sensor Bank2 (swapped pre-converter wit post converter) no change observed. The other bank (Bank1) we see different connector in the Sensor 1 than the other 3 sensors, not sure why, but for this reason we did not swap pre-post converter positions.
- FINALLY: Removed fuel injectors and sent to service, will get them back on Wednesday of this week.

QUESTIONS:
- Can you give opinion on the spark plug colors?
- I uploaded a trend in the garage keeping stable pedal at 1500 and 2000 rpm, there listen exhaust explosions and not very uniform rpms (variation within 100rpm on totally stable pedal and throttle angles): any observation?


Wednesday when we receive the injectors will make a bigger trend with the car running. Thanks for your help.

[Ahmed al ansari]

can you disable the MDS (if your pcm is unlocked)?

[N2speed]

can you disable the MDS (if your pcm is unlocked)?

With a tune yes

[Ahmed al ansari]

With a tune yes

I had a similar issue with cammed 392, I had to remove the catalytic converters just to check if the over temp is causing this issue ( consider I live in Oman and it is very hot all year) after many trapshooting we found that the lifters are broken. After replacing the lifters and MDS delete the car is still running good.

please open catalyic channel in scanner and send me log or we can do zoom call because I really wants to know what is going on.

[Benjamin Lopez]

I had a similar issue with cammed 392, I had to remove the catalytic converters just to check if the over temp is causing this issue ( consider I live in Oman and it is very hot all year) after many trapshooting we found that the lifters are broken. After replacing the lifters and MDS delete the car is still running good.

please open catalyic channel in scanner and send me log or we can do zoom call because I really wants to know what is going on.

Sir, can you comment what is that you call "catalytic channel" in the scanner? I will be glad to provide log with that channel recording.

UPDATE:
- Injectors came back from service, they have been reported to be found all in good condition (good spray, good flow, good seal), however cleaning serviced. Installed: no improvement.
- Attached trend.


I will recap the situation, any ideas or observations are welcome:

ISSUE: LTFT and STFT in order of 20-30% negative in all ranges of engine operation and loads. Knock when operating in open circuit.

CEHCKS done:
- IAT sensor: good visual condition, reading similar to ambient when engine off (OK however very cheap: will order and replace)
- MAP sensor: its a Good year compatible model, found lose (Oring not tight to hole, replaced O-ring) (not totally OK but don?t think responsible of issue, however will replace preventively as it is cheap)
- O2 probes: Ohmeter checked, replaced on bank 2 between the post catalytic converter and pre-converter, no improvement (OK)
- injectors part number: 05037479AD (OK)
- Fuel pressure: 58.01psi (OK)
- Fuel injectors spray quality, flow rate and seal: OK
- Fuel Injectors listen: idle and 1500rpm listen (OK)
- Inlet manifold leaks test: water and starter spray method (not exhaustive), no observations. Suggested to do smoke test: will schedule in 1-2 weeks in a shop.
- Intake ports verification:
- PCV verification and manifold ingestion port plug test: no observations (OK)
- brake actuator vacuum line inspection (OK)
- evap valve verification (OK)
- Throttle body verification: 53034251AD, measured 80mm diameter, observation of smooth operation, observation of stable pedal non-throttle variation (OK)
- Spark plugs removal and visual inspection: soft brown color all, none black, 2 or 3 a bit more white than the others (OK, maybe running lean... aligned to the knock trending)

Next planned steps:
- Smoke check intake manifold to be 100% sure no air ingestions
- Replace MAP and IAT probes to be 100% they are good although no indications could be bad, but they are cheap and critical to the problem
- If that fails to correct, buy replacement PCM and new O2 probes, try stock PCM files run.
- If that fails to correct, unlock the PCM and tune in volumetric efficiency to try to improve engine condition and get better visibility of problem without neural corrections.

Any ideas or comments?26072023 run.hpl

[Ahmed al ansari]

Hello sir ,

the attached image is showing the channel Capturlkdne.PNG

Please feel free to contact me through What'sapp +96895915497 .

[Benjamin Lopez]

OK, adding and returning a log file in short, then I will whatssap you. Thanks.

[Benjamin Lopez]

There you go, logged the catalyzer temperature. I attach the log file and also the display and the channels file, for in case you want to see exactly what I am recording.
Log Madrid final 31Jul23.hpl

chanels config final Madrid 31jul23.Channels.xml

disposition Madrid final.Layout.xml