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Thread: First time tuning Mopar, couple questions

  1. #1
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    First time tuning Mopar, couple questions

    Normally tune GM vehicles but had someone ask to tune their Challenger. It's a 2012 with built 427 engine and Edelbrock supercharger on 91 0ctane. From the videos I have watched I see tuners logging ST and LT fuel trims and making adjustments to VE from there and also disabling power enrichment. Here are some questions I have. Thank you for any feedback.

    What determines air fuel ratio if power enrichment is off?
    Any other recommendations on processes when tuning boosted applications for VE?
    Any good sources understanding fueling strategy?
    Last edited by 19turbo95; 05-05-2023 at 07:37 PM.

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    boosted stroker motor on pump gas...

    what could possibly go wrong???

    after reading your questions i would recommend sending the car and whatever injector/fuel system data i had to someone with mopar experience

    just sayin

  3. #3
    Advanced Tuner PurpleRam's Avatar
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    Short answer, no,

    Ve tuning(as far as I?m concerned) is purely a daily drive type thing???

    Never under any circumstance run a boosted G3 hemi , forged or stock piston, wot with out PE.

    Best thing for you to do , is search out users 06300srt , hemituna and homer (along with boostjunkie ) and read a lot of their responses to boost questions .

    My videos of ve are more for the daily driver situation, I plan on getting into wot tuning soon



    Edit:, I understand where you?re coming from with wot with out Pe, we do it a few times with our kenn bell boosted big ci lt4 and ls7s but none boosted mopar ecu?s. Throw fits , you?re entering in to the twilight zone of tuning.
    Last edited by PurpleRam; 05-05-2023 at 09:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    boosted stroker motor on pump gas...

    what could possibly go wrong???

    after reading your questions i would recommend sending the car and whatever injector/fuel system data i had to someone with mopar experience

    just sayin
    I'm with you on this suggestion, no disrespect to the OP. Dodge's are a different type of animal to tune than GM, Ford, etc. They aren't HARD, they're just different, and there is no easy mode. Dipping your toes into your first Dodge tune with such a lofty engine build is a recipe for disaster. Better off starting with a nearly bone stock car, and working on learning the ECU logic from there.
    I'll say that if you are really good at Speed Density tuning on GM, that experience will help you here on the Dodge platforms, but the fuel table logic might make your head spin at first to get the injectors dialed in. (If you have good injector data, sometimes you get blessed with someone already having calculated the tables for you on here).
    I get that you probably really want to tackle this build, and hang a plaque on the wall, but think about what is best for the customer and slow roll your way into this platform to get more comfortable first. Otherwise it's just not even going to be fun for you either this time around.
    There's a reason it seems MOST performance shops don't tune Dodges (aside from the few that do Hellcats only, thanks to most of them coming with a MAF sensor and allowing half-cocked tuners a chance to pretend like they know what they are doing). It's a BIG potential book of business for you if you learn it right and get the word out there.

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    I'm actually going to try and pay it forward and answer the questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by 19turbo95 View Post
    Do you tune the fuel trims and VE to rev limit with power enrichment on or off with boost?
    Tuning VE with a histogram based on fuel trims only works in closed loop. The idea is (and its same for GM) the values in the VE table are an estimate of how much air mass is in the cylinder at the specific RPM and Pressure Ratio for that cell of the table. The ECU uses the value in that cell as the initial value of fuel to be added for that much air-mass to achieve stoich, about 14.7parts air per 1 part fuel... its actually allot easier if we think of 14.7 to 1 ratio as 100% of "perfect"... or just 1.00, anything greater than 1.0 is lean, anything less is rich. With the engine in closed loop, the ECU monitors the behavior of the front O2 sensors adding fuel when they stop cycling on the lean side, and subtracting fuel when they stop cycling on the rich side. The amount of fuel added in % is shown in the Short Term Fuel Trim for each bank... if the value in STFT persists, the ECU sort of "integrates" or stores the value in long term trims and at any point in time if you look at the sum of STFT and LTFT for each bank you know how much the ECU has had to add or subtract from what it started off with from your VE table cell values... as you build the histogram, you end up with a table of values + and - that can be used to "paste multiply %", etc, to the values in your VE bank tables... and essentially you can flash in the new tables to your ECU, and hopefully it won't have to add or subtract fuel when it is operating at the conditions of the adjusted cells. The purpose of turning PE off is that the ECU starts adding additional fuel when it goes into power enrichment, which completely throws off the process, at least on my NGC4 ECU, that's no longer closed loop... so if you go into PE while collecting data to correct your VE tables, the data you collect, if used to adjust your VE will just mess things up. To make matters worse, if you have PE turned off, and you, especially with BOOST go into very high mass values, no extra fuel, you are certainly operating in a lean condition under boost, which is a recipe for detonation, engine damage, and just a very costly day. Tuning VE using STFT and LTFT is only to be done lightly driving, no sudden acceleration AT ALL, you try to mildly let the engine run in as many pressure ratio and RPM states as possible, and usually you can't get to high or low pressure ratios or high or low RPMs, and you sort of spread the values from your VE histogram to fill in the empty cells to the perimeters of the data collected... I always err on the side of adding to the VE tables (making them richer in cells) than taking away... because it's simply safer to run with too much fuel than not enough.


    Quote Originally Posted by 19turbo95 View Post
    What determines air fuel ratio if power enrichment is off?
    The commanded air fuel ratio essentially comes from the values in the VE table. PE is an additional amount of fuel that is added when PE is activated by putting your foot in the throttle.

    Quote Originally Posted by 19turbo95 View Post
    Any other recommendations on processes when tuning boosted applications for VE?
    Stay out of the throttle, cruise mildly, make sure you are in closed loop. You should probably turn off DFCO, because that features shuts off all fuel when you are coasting or whenever you let your completely off the throttle and coast. You'll notice the Pressure Ratio goes to the top cells of the table, because when coasting the manifold air pressure is low compared to atmospheric. (Pressure ratio at any given instant in time is = manifold air pressure at that instant divided by barometric pressure at that instant.

    Quote Originally Posted by 19turbo95 View Post
    Any good sources understanding fueling strategy?
    I would recommend starting by reading one of the books by Greg Banish to get started...

    https://a.co/d/5fwvnXN
    Last edited by ngc1068; 05-05-2023 at 06:58 PM.
    2016 Chevy SS Sedan M6 SBE LS3, Whipple 2.9L, 3.625 upper/stock lower pulleys for 9.5psi, TSP Stg 3 SC Cam, ID 1050x injectors, LS7 MAF, DSX Aux Pump, DSX Flex Fuel Sensor
    2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, 6.1 HEMI, Edelbrock E-Force TVS-2300, 9psi

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngc1068 View Post
    I'm actually going to try and pay it forward and answer the questions.



    Tuning VE with a histogram based on fuel trims only works in closed loop. The idea is (and its same for GM) the values in the VE table are an estimate of how much air mass is in the cylinder at the specific RPM and Pressure Ratio for that cell of the table. The ECU uses the value in that cell as the initial value of fuel to be added for that much air-mass to achieve stoich, about 14.7parts air per 1 part fuel... its actually allot easier if we think of 14.7 to 1 ratio as 100% of "perfect"... or just 1.00, anything greater than 1.0 is lean, anything less is rich. With the engine in closed loop, the ECU monitors the behavior of the front O2 sensors adding fuel when they stop cycling on the lean side, and subtracting fuel when they stop cycling on the rich side. The amount of fuel added in % is shown in the Short Term Fuel Trim for each bank... if the value in STFT persists, the ECU sort of "integrates" or stores the value in long term trims and at any point in time if you look at the sum of STFT and LTFT for each bank you know how much the ECU has had to add or subtract from what it started off with from your VE table cell values... as you build the histogram, you end up with a table of values + and - that can be used to "paste multiply %", etc, to the values in your VE bank tables... and essentially you can flash in the new tables to your ECU, and hopefully it won't have to add or subtract fuel when it is operating at the conditions of the adjusted cells. The purpose of turning PE off is that the ECU starts adding additional fuel when it goes into power enrichment, which completely throws off the process, at least on my NGC4 ECU, that's no longer closed loop... so if you go into PE while collecting data to correct your VE tables, the data you collect, if used to adjust your VE will just mess things up. To make matters worse, if you have PE turned off, and you, especially with BOOST go into very high mass values, no extra fuel, you are certainly operating in a lean condition under boost, which is a recipe for detonation, engine damage, and just a very costly day. Tuning VE using STFT and LTFT is only to be done lightly driving, no sudden acceleration AT ALL, you try to mildly let the engine run in as many pressure ratio and RPM states as possible, and usually you can't get to high or low pressure ratios or high or low RPMs, and you sort of spread the values from your VE histogram to fill in the empty cells to the perimeters of the data collected... I always err on the side of adding to the VE tables (making them richer in cells) than taking away... because it's simply safer to run with too much fuel than not enough.



    The commanded air fuel ratio essentially comes from the values in the VE table. PE is an additional amount of fuel that is added when PE is activated by putting your foot in the throttle.


    Stay out of the throttle, cruise mildly, make sure you are in closed loop. You should probably turn off DFCO, because that features shuts off all fuel when you are coasting or whenever you let your completely off the throttle and coast. You'll notice the Pressure Ratio goes to the top cells of the table, because when coasting the manifold air pressure is low compared to atmospheric. (Pressure ratio at any given instant in time is = manifold air pressure at that instant divided by barometric pressure at that instant.



    I would recommend starting by reading one of the books by Greg Banish to get started...

    https://a.co/d/5fwvnXN
    Thank you very much for the info. This was exactly what I was hoping for feedback. I was not going to tune this car the way I originally stated but more of an understanding for myself and others.

  7. #7
    Advanced Tuner rays04gtx's Avatar
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    Mopar Hemi ECU's for NA it targets 14.4 , Not 14.7

    you can get fairly aggressive with VE tuning drives, depending on if the Accelerator pedal vales are still stock.
    Last edited by rays04gtx; 05-06-2023 at 11:17 AM.
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    how often is the stoich of pump gas 14.7

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    Quote Originally Posted by rays04gtx View Post
    Mopar Hemi ECU's for NA it targets 14.4 , Not 14.7
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    how often is the stoich of pump gas 14.7
    This is why using Air/Fuel EQ Ratio (Lambda), or Fuel/Air EQ Ratio (Phi) is better. The value of 1 will always be stoich, so you will always know if you are richer or leaner from stoich, and how far from stoich you are. It seems to me it is best for the tuner, as soon as possible after getting started, to let go of AFR and FAR in relation to fuel stoichiometry and instead embrace thinking in terms of Lambda and Phi.
    2016 Chevy SS Sedan M6 SBE LS3, Whipple 2.9L, 3.625 upper/stock lower pulleys for 9.5psi, TSP Stg 3 SC Cam, ID 1050x injectors, LS7 MAF, DSX Aux Pump, DSX Flex Fuel Sensor
    2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, 6.1 HEMI, Edelbrock E-Force TVS-2300, 9psi

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    how often does a fuel make max power exactly at 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    how often does a fuel make max power exactly at 1
    Exactly the same probability of you posting something helpful to the OP? lol..
    2016 Chevy SS Sedan M6 SBE LS3, Whipple 2.9L, 3.625 upper/stock lower pulleys for 9.5psi, TSP Stg 3 SC Cam, ID 1050x injectors, LS7 MAF, DSX Aux Pump, DSX Flex Fuel Sensor
    2009 Dodge Challenger SRT8, 6.1 HEMI, Edelbrock E-Force TVS-2300, 9psi

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    if ya cant read a spark plug and a time slip what good is a accurate log

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    You'll do fine. It's the same in principle. Really similar to gen 3 GM, actually. Well, except for the variable camshaft of course. Nice thing is no VVE. Don't worry about complicated. It's not like a Ford where you have all these mapped points and calculated MAP values.

    You'll see FAR used instead of AFR, but that's pretty quick to understand. An additional complication is with tuning the neural network; however, you'll disable this permanently in order to tune the way you're talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LilSick View Post
    how often is the stoich of pump gas 14.7
    exactly that's why DCX used .0694 for Stoich instead of .0680 and FCA used .0688(14.53) for 09+ and .0720(13.88 to 1) for the Hellkitty

    add VE factor tables and the fact that fuels vary from batch to batch, one day your 10% ethanol 93 oct is actually 2% the next tank load is 12% ......E85 is the worse when it comes to consistency , the variance can be 51% to 83% and that's why VE tuning is never 100% all the time.
    Last edited by rays04gtx; 05-07-2023 at 02:59 PM.
    62 Biscayne 425/409 SS/D stock class car 10.60s
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    04 Rumble Bee, built 6.1 ,4000lbs 10.48 @ 129s MPH. Naturally asperated
    05 Rumble Stock 5.7, 3.92s TUNE ONLY 13.94@98mph

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    all day > every day
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    ran across this old pic of a bike built by the guys that stole my pro stock clutch and it reminded me of this thread...

    what could possibly go wrong?
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