new tuner completely lost please help

[SiriusC1024]

Ok that's simple enough. If you want LTFT compare OEM files to see what needs to be enabled.

How's it running?

[JR92RS]

so far the only thing that seemed to reel in the over fueling was to re-enable ltft, i'll post a log below

but at what point does running lean become dangerous to the motor?

[SiriusC1024]

so far the only thing that seemed to reel in the over fueling was to re-enable ltft, i'll post a log below

but at what point does running lean become dangerous to the motor?

After you made the changes did you use VCM Scanner to reset fuel trims? They might be holding over and making the computer pull fuel.

You want stoichiometric while cruising. A little lean there won't hurt. What you don't want is lean at high loads and WOT.

[JR92RS]

After you made the changes did you use VCM Scanner to reset fuel trims? They might be holding over and making the computer pull fuel.

You want stoichiometric while cruising. A little lean there won't hurt. What you don't want is lean at high loads and WOT.

1.no i did not reset fuel trims but i will tomorrow

2. under this tune when pushing in the pedal it feels like there is a mis, but i'm not getting any dtc's indicating a miss, could that be a timing issue?

3. with this cam what degree of advance timing would you expect to see?

4. also while logging idle i was playing with the intake air steps, and took it clear up to 135 (i think, whatever the max is) and she sounded better up there but it also shot the idle up to around 950-1000 rpm

[SiriusC1024]

You changed cam and injectors. There's a lot more tuning to do. I've given you a good starting point with the fuel. Time to start on the rest.

[JR92RS]

You changed cam and injectors. There's a lot more tuning to do. I've given you a good starting point with the fuel. Time to start on the rest.

i appreciate the advice thus far, if you are set up with paypal or zelle pm me the info for a tip.

then let's proceed with the above questions

1.no i did not reset fuel trims but i will tomorrow

2. under this tune when pushing in the pedal it feels like there is a mis, but i'm not getting any dtc's indicating a miss, could that be a timing issue?

3. with this cam what degree of advance timing would you expect to see?

4. also while logging idle i was playing with the intake air steps, and took it clear up to 135 (i think, whatever the max is) and she sounded better up there but it also shot the idle up to around 950-1000 rpm

[SiriusC1024]

Nah I'm not going to get into all of that. Especially spark. I would if I could be there. Get a dyno tune or do a lot of research.

Set up your short pulse adder like I had it.

[JR92RS]

LTFT enable/disable has nothing to do with what mode it is running in.

thank you for the response

[JR92RS]

Nah I'm not going to get into all of that. Especially spark. I would if I could be there. Get a dyno tune or do a lot of research.

Set up your short pulse adder like I had it.

ill try that tomorrow, i tried just taking 15% out of the table first

[JR92RS]

Ok that's simple enough. If you want LTFT compare OEM files to see what needs to be enabled.

How's it running?

i was already doing this, thats how i got the min ect to enable.....both were set to 284*, but tomorrow i thinking about doing alot more compare to stock and tune accordingly and check each small change.

also i'm calling the local tuner tomorrow to get things started, maybe some remote tuning to start.....after reading all these threads i realize there's no way you get a quality tune in just 2 hours on the dyno.

[SiriusC1024]

Don't be pulling fuel out of the tables. They are correct. Put them like I have it for flow, offset, min, adder. The fuel injectors are the constant in the tune, not a tuning tool. You need to look at tuning VE now. New cam remember?

You're forgetting to get a log at light throttle/cruising. Don't base assumptions off just idle.

[JR92RS]

Don't be pulling fuel out of the tables. They are correct. Put them like I have it for flow, offset, min, adder. The fuel injectors are the constant in the tune, not a tuning tool. You need to look at tuning VE now. New cam remember?

You're forgetting to get a log at light throttle/cruising. Don't base assumptions off just idle, especially a 110 LSA.

i wanted to get too what you had in baby steps, i will check what i changed against your tune tomorrow and adjust. but i'm just about done with what i'm comfortable trying, after i install the trax spec hood louvers and get the hood back on (that's why no driving log's) i'll probably get it to the tuner for him to finish it off

[eficalibrator]

Ugh... Some injector companies are either ignorant or the need for complete characterization data or just too cheap to have it done for them, leaving customers like you in the dark. Other companies know that giving their customers a complete characterization (in the OEM units) makes the job of tuning 10000% easier.

Remember high school math where you had two unknowns and needed two equations to properly solve for them? This is the real-world version of that, but with *4* unknowns. Anyone GUESSING at the offset, short pulse adder, flow rate or airflow combination might have a solution that works under ONE condition, but it falls apart as soon as something changes. They bake in the error from short pulse adder into the offset or airflow calculation then wonder why it won't idle nice the next day.

Fixing this requires that we run the injector offline in a test fixture (without the engine) to draw a complete picture of how the injector works. Then we fit that data back to the tables used in the various ECUs. I made a machine that does this for a fraction of the cost of the one used by GM, Ford, Bosch, etc... I have used it to generate the data for several injector companies and also tested individual sets for clients. (There can be a significant variation in the population of "same part number" injectors!)

Like @blindsquirrel said, we're sorry you didn't know this before spending money. Unfortunately, the right solution is to either get your set tested offline to get your data, or find a different set that comes with accurate data. Any TOONER who claims they don't need this, or they can "figure it out on the car" is blowing sunshine up your backside to take your money and will delivered at best a compromised engine calibration.

[GHuggins]

Ugh... Some injector companies are either ignorant or the need for complete characterization data or just too cheap to have it done for them, leaving customers like you in the dark. Other companies know that giving their customers a complete characterization (in the OEM units) makes the job of tuning 10000% easier.

Remember high school math where you had two unknowns and needed two equations to properly solve for them? This is the real-world version of that, but with *4* unknowns. Anyone GUESSING at the offset, short pulse adder, flow rate or airflow combination might have a solution that works under ONE condition, but it falls apart as soon as something changes. They bake in the error from short pulse adder into the offset or airflow calculation then wonder why it won't idle nice the next day.

Fixing this requires that we run the injector offline in a test fixture (without the engine) to draw a complete picture of how the injector works. Then we fit that data back to the tables used in the various ECUs. I made a machine that does this for a fraction of the cost of the one used by GM, Ford, Bosch, etc... I have used it to generate the data for several injector companies and also tested individual sets for clients. (There can be a significant variation in the population of "same part number" injectors!)

Like @blindsquirrel said, we're sorry you didn't know this before spending money. Unfortunately, the right solution is to either get your set tested offline to get your data, or find a different set that comes with accurate data. Any TOONER who claims they don't need this, or they can "figure it out on the car" is blowing sunshine up your backside to take your money and will delivered at best a compromised engine calibration.

Can you do gen V's or DI's and what do you charge for the different styles? I see it the most on gen V's where customers have to remove them and send them in for cleaning and flow testing - just curious as this would deliver Exact Data for that given set...

[SiriusC1024]

Ugh... Some injector companies are either ignorant or the need for complete characterization data or just too cheap to have it done for them, leaving customers like you in the dark. Other companies know that giving their customers a complete characterization (in the OEM units) makes the job of tuning 10000% easier.

Remember high school math where you had two unknowns and needed two equations to properly solve for them? This is the real-world version of that, but with *4* unknowns. Anyone GUESSING at the offset, short pulse adder, flow rate or airflow combination might have a solution that works under ONE condition, but it falls apart as soon as something changes. They bake in the error from short pulse adder into the offset or airflow calculation then wonder why it won't idle nice the next day.

Fixing this requires that we run the injector offline in a test fixture (without the engine) to draw a complete picture of how the injector works. Then we fit that data back to the tables used in the various ECUs. I made a machine that does this for a fraction of the cost of the one used by GM, Ford, Bosch, etc... I have used it to generate the data for several injector companies and also tested individual sets for clients. (There can be a significant variation in the population of "same part number" injectors!)

Like @blindsquirrel said, we're sorry you didn't know this before spending money. Unfortunately, the right solution is to either get your set tested offline to get your data, or find a different set that comes with accurate data. Any TOONER who claims they don't need this, or they can "figure it out on the car" is blowing sunshine up your backside to take your money and will delivered at best a compromised engine calibration.

I've been running "non-characterized" injectors for 5 years/80k in my build. They work fine. I'll concede that it's not exact, but nobody can convince me that it's absolutely necessary.

From the logic above you're saying that even a set of factory injectors with known data need to be characterized due to variation. Save that for the race teams.

Your method estimates, not measures, the non-linearity region. The CSI model still has up to 10% error. So where do we draw the line on what's acceptable error? Sometimes it's a case of diminishing returns. What sense would it make for OP to pay even more for injector characterization when the manufacturer gives him the data and guarantees 1% variation? Further, those Accel's are rapid-opening. The non-linear region is much smaller than factory Bosch's.

[SiriusC1024]

I've figured out why the Accel 36lb injectors flow at 33.3lb. The advertised 36lb is for gasoline, whereas the 252gm/min spec is flow with n-heptane. If you account for the density difference the injectors actually are 36lb injectors for gasoline.

Density n-heptane: .684 g/mL
Density e10: .743 g/mL

So:
252 g/min = 33.33 lb/hr -> 33.33 lb/hr *(.743/.684) = 36.2 lb/hr

Now, the next thing to do is figure out what GM uses to flow their injectors. It's something a little denser than n-heptane, but much lighter than gasoline. I'll keep working on it then post back with the GM style flow ratings for these Accels.

[TheMechanic]

I've been running "non-characterized" injectors for 5 years/80k in my build. They work fine. I'll concede that it's not exact, but nobody can convince me that it's absolutely necessary.

From the logic above you're saying that even a set of factory injectors with known data need to be characterized due to variation. Save that for the race teams.

Your method estimates, not measures, the non-linearity region. The CSI model still has up to 10% error. So where do we draw the line on what's acceptable error? Sometimes it's a case of diminishing returns. What sense would it make for OP to pay even more for injector characterization when the manufacturer gives him the data and guarantees 1% variation? Further, those Accel's are rapid-opening. The non-linear region is much smaller than factory Bosch's.

The line is drawn wherever you want it to be drawn. Some people want perfection. Some want close to perfection as they can get. Some just want to make to work 5 days a week and not break down on the freeway in a burning heap of liquid metal.

[JR92RS]

I've figured out why the Accel 36lb injectors flow at 33.3lb. The advertised 36lb is for gasoline, whereas the 252gm/min spec is flow with n-heptane. If you account for the density difference the injectors actually are 36lb injectors for gasoline.

Density n-heptane: .684 g/mL
Density e10: .743 g/mL

So:
252 g/min = 33.33 lb/hr -> 33.33 lb/hr *(.743/.684) = 36.2 lb/hr

Now, the next thing to do is figure out what GM uses to flow their injectors. It's something a little denser than n-heptane, but much lighter than gasoline. I'll keep working on it then post back with the GM style flow ratings for these Accels.

it was comforting to see nobody argued with your math, i really should have paid attention in math class
no tuning today just installing the hood louvers and cleaning up the garage from this engine swaptrak spec.jpgtrak spec.jpgtrak spec2.jpg

[JR92RS]

just got a tip of the day type email from hp tuners about crank relearn....and realized that hasn't been done yet, could that be the miss feel i was getting yesterday?
and in looking at their process with applying the parking brake then the foot brake.....i don't know if my ecm is getting the parking brake signal or not. i think i'm good on the footbrake as the torque converter would need that signal for lockup and disengaging, but if i don't have the parking brake signal could that make the process crash or cause any undesirable affects???

[2xLS1]

I've figured out why the Accel 36lb injectors flow at 33.3lb. The advertised 36lb is for gasoline, whereas the 252gm/min spec is flow with n-heptane. If you account for the density difference the injectors actually are 36lb injectors for gasoline.

Density n-heptane: .684 g/mL
Density e10: .743 g/mL

So:
252 g/min = 33.33 lb/hr -> 33.33 lb/hr *(.743/.684) = 36.2 lb/hr

Now, the next thing to do is figure out what GM uses to flow their injectors. It's something a little denser than n-heptane, but much lighter than gasoline. I'll keep working on it then post back with the GM style flow ratings for these Accels.

While you are at it compare the injector data for a 02 Fbody and a 02 Vette that both use the exact same injector and figure out why they are characterized so different by GM calibration engineers. Or find an injector manufacturer that doesn't spec their injector flowed with n-heptane.