07 Expeition w/4bt

[sks72107]

Hello All. Very new to this tuning game, but i need to work on some programming issues with my cummins 4bt converted 07 Expedition. For the past 5 yearsish ive been running with a 5sp manual trans. Recently my performance clutch went south and ive decided to go a different route. Ive decided to go back to a 6r80 trans,(i believe it originally came with a 6r75) Anyhow, Ive machined an adapter plate to mate the 6r to the 4bt, with a custom converter in between. So everything is running, but its not rolling yet. And heres my issue, upon fresh start up, the trans will shift into all gears and will shift through the forward gears while up on jack stands. But after a bit(less than probably 10 seconds), it would seem the engine goes into some type of limp mode as the throttle goes dead. The injection pump is fully controlled by the orighinal throttle body with TPS. This setup has worked well with the manual trans. Also note, this dead pedal only happens when i have a RPM input to the PCM, without the RPM input things go just fine(except no dash tach). My tach pickup uses the original tone ring and sensor. The issue is the 6r requires a tach signal to function, so im between a rock and a hard place. Im using the original TCM to control the trans.

So im maybe thinking that the PCM is going into a freak out mode as it sees the engine spinning, but it knows theres a bunch of stuff unplugged that i dont need working, ala injectors, cops, MAF, fuel pump, knock sensors, cam sensors, etc. Im looking for the best way to go about re-programming this thing to get it rolling. Again im very new to this but i do have the VCM editor and scanner with a MPVI2. After i make it run, i hope to do some trans adjustments.

Any input would be appreciated, Admins if this is in the wrong sub-topic feel free to move.

[sks72107]

So here's an update....if anyone cares to help a newb out. I now have a moving expedition with the 6r80. The PCM needed a tach signal to operate the trans. Turns out the original crank sensor wiring was messed up and sending a faulty signal(causing the safe mode), built a new wire and verified a good signal with oscilliscope; i now have a good solid tach signal. This allowed me to get the ol girl up and rolling. And this leads me to my new troubles.

My gut tells me my issues with this can be resolved via tuning, but guys im so green i really need some pointers.

The issue has to do with the drive by wire system. I think all of the gasser stuff i have disconnected is having an effect on the funtionality of the DBW. When i had the manual trans i had the exact same throttle setup as now(just no tach setup), and i had no complaints with how the throttle body controlled the injection pump. The problem is the way the throttle plate angle reacts to pedal input. I can move the pedal down probaly 1/2 to 3/4 of the way and the throttle body barely moves, but going beyond this the throttle snaps open, very aggressive like!! How do i go about altering how the DBW performs? My throttle setup is really simple as you can see in the attached pic.

When i just turn the key to the run position, the throttle performs just like it used to with the manual trans. As i ease into the pedal, the throttle boddy follows suit(just like i want). But as soon as its running the throttle responds completely differently. When i take it out and lot drive it, it has this same issue.

I wish i could get the scanner program working with my MPVI3 and get some data logs, but i havent got it to recognize my interface yet....so i could use pointers with this as well. lol.

Again any assistance in these areas would be very much appreciated.

Shannon


4bt throttle body.jpg

[SiriusC1024]

I'm just curious about why this has a throttle body. 6BT doesn't. I've never seen a diesel with one. Pedal should control the injection pump.

Or is that throttle body just sitting there on a bracket to fool the ecu?

Wait...why does this have an ecu at all? 4BT is completely mechanical.

Nvm I re-read. Post your tune. I have a few ideas about what it might be.

[sks72107]

I'm just curious about why this has a throttle body. 6BT doesn't. I've never seen a diesel with one. Pedal should control the injection pump.

Or is that throttle body just sitting there on a bracket to fool the ecu?

Wait...why does this have an ecu at all? 4BT is completely mechanical.

Nvm I re-read. Post your tune. I have a few ideas about what it might be.

Thanks for the reply! The throttle body is functional, not attempting to fool anything. Theres a rod with ball ends that connect the pump lever to the throttle body. I removed the plate and machined a part that actuates another lever, its simple yet effective. Initial goal was to retain cruise control as the cruise is strictly DBW on this vehicle. Would also be able to adjust the idle, and have the system idle up in cold weather for warming up. In the attached tune, the only thing i have done is disable quite a few DTCs. I have not gone into any other major settings; iirc.

Again thank you for any input on sorting this out.

07exp_6-28-23.hpt

[SiriusC1024]

I really don't see this ever happening. The plan was to adjust the torque model and driver demand vs pedal. For the transmission I was going to disable torque-based shifting in order to make use regular TPS vs VSS shift scheduling.

Your file doesn't have the capability to edit the torque model. This might not even be necessary. What's certainly necessary are definitions for the 6R80. Setting the trans to 'Automatic' isn't enough. The 6R80 requires a controller to set clutch synchonization and solenoid PWM's. If you were able to get the throttle to move correctly would the trans even go into gear? You're going to need a standalone controller like the Quick 6 if you ever want to use that transmission. At $1200 for the Quick 6, you may just want go back to the manual trans.

You can try this file if you want. Really doubt it will do anything.

[sks72107]

When i read the tune, i was pretty sure that i told the program to read both the TCM and PCM calibration. I don't know why there is nothing in the transmission tabs in editor. I read the calibration on a cadillac SRX it did not show any trans calibration either. When you say the "6r80 requires a controller", wouldn't that just be the stock TCM in the trans? In its current state, the vehicle will drive and go between PRND just fine. I do not think it has shifted between gears yet while in drive. Can also manually put the trans in 1,2,3. Im going to try to read the trans data again tonight and see what happens. If it doesnt read again ill submit a help ticket. Ill load in that calibration and see what happens and report back. Thanks for your input.

What part of Indiana are you from, Im from the Logansport area.

[sks72107]

Early versions of the 6r had the TCM located in the transmission, incorporated into the lead frame(like mine). I think newer model 6r(2011+?) has the TCM located in the doghouse(or atleast external to the trans). Maybe im not following what you are trying to say??

[SiriusC1024]

I'm saying the trans was controlled directly by the PCM on 2011-2014. Regardless, it'd be nice if the trans tabs existed to at least define shift points for your lower rpm motor.

[sks72107]

I read the vehicle again tonight and it pulled the trans calibration as well this time. I have no idea why it didnt read it before. Attached you will find the most current calibration of the vehicle with all the trans tabs. Hoping this will help point to something. I had some issues navigating all the tabs......hoping it was just my slow processor.....

Thanks again.

[Joewrench]

Any progress on this? I have a similar/different build. 2011 F150 that I swapped a bmw m57 common rail diesel into. 11 doesn?t have a tcm. The trans is controlled by the pcm. I was hoping that I could use the pcm to control the transmission but that isn?t working so far. The torque logic or something seems to freak out in the pcm and it hits neutral. It will drive and shift through all the gears if I?m extremely gentle with the throttle.

[Lost0187]

I have done a similar set up where I used a trans that was not set up for my silver oak and to get it running correctly its going to take some trial and error. Is you diesel controlled by ay kind of pcm control or is it mostly mechanical? Also what inputs do you have available because the 07 expedition and navigator are completely HS CAN controlled to send info back and forth from one module to the other what stuff is stock from the expedition and what has changed (abs, pcm, mechatronic tcm, etc). I can try to help out and see if we can get it working correctly saw you are using a tone rig for rpm ad other stuff you added to assist with the gas pcm to run the diesel motor?

also saw you are going into limp mode or the wrench i was able to get rid of this issue when i did a trans swap on my 08 expedition prior to changing my system completely.

Ill send you a couple thing to try personally on your truck I think its fully possible to get it working.

[Lost0187]

Here are some channels to log

throttle angle desired
throttle angle
throttle position sensor volts
relative throttle position
vehicle speed
torque source diver demand
any torque sources you find
engine rpm
open loop fuel (yes/no)
air load
absolute load
calculated load
timing advance
fuel system status

also add some tcm channels to log
and anything else you may want to add to make sure they aren't interfering with engine and tcm control

I attached my old channels but you can add more to it

[Joewrench]

Here's my file read if anybody wants to have a look. Bin file in the google drive link.

F150 stock file.hpt

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10ZL...ew?usp=sharing

[sks72107]

Any progress on this? I have a similar/different build. 2011 F150 that I swapped a bmw m57 common rail diesel into. 11 doesn?t have a tcm. The trans is controlled by the pcm. I was hoping that I could use the pcm to control the transmission but that isn?t working so far. The torque logic or something seems to freak out in the pcm and it hits neutral. It will drive and shift through all the gears if I?m extremely gentle with the throttle.

Unfortunetely i havent had success thus far. I completely removed my Throttle body injection pump control setup and now its pure cable, as people thought that may have been an issue. I dont know if the 11 had the TCM in the trans or if it was going through the PCM at this time. Currently my ride will only shift from 1-2 and occassionally will downshift back to 1. It wont go into 3 or higher. But that 1-2 shift is really slooooww and soft. Ive tried this with varying throttle as well. Sorry i cant be of more help!!

[sks72107]

I have done a similar set up where I used a trans that was not set up for my silver oak and to get it running correctly its going to take some trial and error. Is you diesel controlled by ay kind of pcm control or is it mostly mechanical? Also what inputs do you have available because the 07 expedition and navigator are completely HS CAN controlled to send info back and forth from one module to the other what stuff is stock from the expedition and what has changed (abs, pcm, mechatronic tcm, etc). I can try to help out and see if we can get it working correctly saw you are using a tone rig for rpm ad other stuff you added to assist with the gas pcm to run the diesel motor?

also saw you are going into limp mode or the wrench i was able to get rid of this issue when i did a trans swap on my 08 expedition prior to changing my system completely.

Ill send you a couple thing to try personally on your truck I think its fully possible to get it working.

Hello, and thanks for the assistance. Silver Oak is the operating system i believe im dealing with. Im a little confused on what inputs your asking are available. Im still running the original PCM which would have all of the original inputs available. I turned off a lot of them though when i first started messing around with things.

Here is how my current setup sits. I have removed the throttle body injection pump control and it now controlled by cable from the pedal. Im still running the same tach signal setup which is working well, once i got a clean tach signal i never had another Limp Mode. Since i decided to remove the throttle body controler, i had to create a bracket for the TPS signal. My setup for this also seems to be working well, as far as i can tell. Im under the impression the 6r80 trans only needs a tach and tps to operate it. This engine is fully mechanical, only requires 12v to the shut off solenoid to stay running.

Lost0187, im close to giving up on this thing, but you may have breathed new life in to trying to keep going forward.

[Lost0187]

So thinking you main problem is that transmission needs a rpm signal to function properly what I would do is take the diesel engine crank sensor and wire it into the 5.4 3v pcm so the pcm sees RPM then see if your issues is fixed.

[Lost0187]

Here is the C175E the middle connector in the silveroak pcm you nneed to wire the 4BT crank sensor to pin 46 (negitive) and 47 (positive) of sensor

[Lost0187]

This is how the internal TCM works in you expedition 6R75, so the pcm will need these signals such as engine rpm (CRANK SENSOR) you should be able to wire in your 4BT crank sensor to the ford PCM. Also The ford Pedal will be needed as well as the original expedition ABS traction control system.

[Lost0187]

If you can also see if your setting codes in the pcm using the vcm scanner that would help and also upload a few logs so I can have a look, here are some channels I used for silver oaks you can add to the pids list.

when I compare your silveroak to other silver oak files I have you seem to be missing a ton of dtcs if you are interested I can send you a 08 strategy but you would obviously have to license it to use it.

Here are pics of the dtcs missing on your calibration might want to send it to engineering at HP TUNERS.

[Lost0187]

Just checking up on the project have you made any head way with your diesel swap? If you still need help I’m sure I could look into making the trans operate for you.