Tuning MAF and VVE at the Same Time

[sgod1100]

Who are you again?



I mean you're a good example here lol. You wouldn't be motivated to make these tools if HP Tuners already had the capability. The scanner hasn't changed much at all in the past 10+ years. Powertrain controllers are wildly more complex and generate tons more data than they used to, yet there has been next to nothing in the way of post-processing tools added to the scanner.

Ever heard of DSX tuning? He's the owner....

[sgod1100]

Y'all are nuts and doing it wrong anyway.

Care to enlighten us??

[smokeshow]

Ever heard of DSX tuning? He's the owner....

Never heard of her.

[GHuggins]

Dave's another engineer that designs a lot of the flex fuel bolt ons and sensors that can be added to non equipped vehicles. Although I did not think he was tuning anymore - or at least he told me he wasn't the last time I talked to him?

So what's your method and the correct way Dave?

[DSteck]

Ever heard of DSX tuning? He's the owner....

He knows. Lol. I talk to him near constantly, and we’re working on a GM project together.

Care to enlighten us??

I’ll take my math to the grave. Lol.

Dave's another engineer that designs a lot of the flex fuel bolt ons and sensors that can be added to non equipped vehicles. Although I did not think he was tuning anymore - or at least he told me he wasn't the last time I talked to him?

So what's your method and the correct way Dave?

All this crap trying to back calculate off airflow is absurd.

Back calculate off of delivered steady state exhaust measurements using known good injector information. Using fuel trims, reported airflow, any of that is dumb.

[GHuggins]

He knows. Lol. I talk to him near constantly, and we’re working on a GM project together.


I’ll take my math to the grave. Lol.


All this crap trying to back calculate off airflow is absurd.

Back calculate off of delivered steady state exhaust measurements using known good injector information. Using fuel trims, reported airflow, any of that is dumb.

Don't think we have anyway of measuring steady state exhaust flow or exhaust flow in general unless you're somehow using air and fuel going in to somehow convert that to exhaust flow going out but that would go back to using trims and airflow??? I assume you're using some special tool for measurement at that point.

[Cringer]

He knows. Lol. I talk to him near constantly, and we’re working on a GM project together.


I’ll take my math to the grave. Lol.


All this crap trying to back calculate off airflow is absurd.

Back calculate off of delivered steady state exhaust measurements using known good injector information. Using fuel trims, reported airflow, any of that is dumb.

If you are seriously not going to help and take your math to the grave...then why even post? So if you won't share your magical math, then can you at least give us peasants some pointers or some type of direction that is not "dumb" so we can stumble around for the next few decades trying to figure it all out?

[PGA2B]

player three has entered the game!!!

Ah young Padawan, much to learn you have!

[Cringer]

Ah young Padawan, much to learn you have!

Oh I am aware

[GHuggins]

Personally I think any of our math formulas work - it's just the whole stead state part that you're not going to get from customers logging or anywhere other than a controlled environment such as being on a dynometer.

[Area47]

Pheasant checking in. Pass the popcorn!

[GHuggins]

All the oldies coming out You still tuning or did you call it?

[Cringer]

Personally I think any of our math formulas work - it's just the whole stead state part that you're not going to get from customers logging or anywhere other than a controlled environment such as being on a dynometer.

This is what I was thinking. Most folks aren't going to have access to a steady state dyno and laboratory grade exhaust sniffing equipment. This is not realistic for the majority. I would rather use the data generated from the ECM to tune the same ECM.

Pheasant checking in. Pass the popcorn!

Welcome to the fray, player four!

[Area47]

All the oldies coming out You still tuning or did you call it?

I tinker with my own stuff now. A lot less headaches. I do offer assistance every now and then, but that's all more or less charity work anyways. I am you last year.

Having an office job is nice.

[DSteck]

Don't think we have anyway of measuring steady state exhaust flow or exhaust flow in general unless you're somehow using air and fuel going in to somehow convert that to exhaust flow going out but that would go back to using trims and airflow??? I assume you're using some special tool for measurement at that point.

You don’t need to measure exhaust flow or anything. Your known good injector data (*cough cough* OEM or Injector Dyanmics) is your flow meter, and your wideband tells you how much air you’re getting.

If you are seriously not going to help and take your math to the grave...then why even post? So if you won't share your magical math, then can you at least give us peasants some pointers or some type of direction that is not "dumb" so we can stumble around for the next few decades trying to figure it all out?

I make a living off of doing things better than other people, so I’m not going to share what shaves hours off my cal times. It was more of a note that maybe you (meaning everyone) should consider a very different approach.

And also not dismiss Jake… who is, well, not wrong when he tells you something.

[Cringer]

You don’t need to measure exhaust flow or anything. Your known good injector data (*cough cough* OEM or Injector Dyanmics) is your flow meter, and your wideband tells you how much air you’re getting.


I make a living off of doing things better than other people, so I’m not going to share what shaves hours off my cal times. It was more of a note that maybe you (meaning everyone) should consider a very different approach.

And also not dismiss Jake… who is, well, not wrong when he tells you something.

Although it doesn't help me, I can appreciate your appeal to maintain your competitive advantage.

I assume Jake is smokeshow. And as I have laid out, I am just not getting satisfactory results using other methods. So I have staked out on my own and discovered a much better solution. You may not agree with it and that is fine. So long as my fuel trims are +/-2% I think I am doing just fine.

[GHuggins]

You don’t need to measure exhaust flow or anything. Your known good injector data (*cough cough* OEM or Injector Dyanmics) is your flow meter, and your wideband tells you how much air you’re getting.


I make a living off of doing things better than other people, so I’m not going to share what shaves hours off my cal times. It was more of a note that maybe you (meaning everyone) should consider a very different approach.

And also not dismiss Jake… who is, well, not wrong when he tells you something.

I think I know what you're talking about now - the mind and especially the memory isn't what it used to be - definitely used to be a lot smarter - stress is a killer - I had a formula years ago that did just that - used afr/eq error and injector pw's to dial in the VVE table - it based it off of fuel usage instead of airflow - it still wouldn't get it perfect, but got it within 2 to 7 percent first pass and still had to have the MAF failed if you wanted it to be truly 100% accurate... Also it was much worse with any sudden pedal movements than the air calcs combined with fuel calcs are. You may have even posted a formula for the foundation of it way back when. OR we based it off of Marcin's - I had another engineer helping me at the time - he came up with the base formula - again based off of yours or marcin's - may have been Marcin's the more I think about it and then I edited it to make it actually work correctly with cars on the dyno... Computer crashed and lost all of my older formula's - though I have since learned to save files to an external drive I never did get the formula back

[Area47]

I think I know what you're talking about now - the mind and especially the memory isn't what it used to be - definitely used to be a lot smarter - stress is a killer - I had a formula years ago that did just that - used afr/eq error and injector pw's to dial in the VVE table - it based it off of fuel usage instead of airflow - it still wouldn't get it perfect, but got it within 2 to 7 percent first pass and still had to have the MAF failed if you wanted it to be truly 100% accurate... Also it was much worse with any sudden pedal movements than the air calcs combined with fuel calcs are. You may have even posted a formula for the foundation of it way back when. OR we based it off of Marcin's - I had another engineer helping me at the time - he came up with the base formula - again based off of yours or marcin's - may have been Marcin's the more I think about it and then I edited it to make it actually work correctly with cars on the dyno... Computer crashed and lost all of my older formula's - though I have since learned to save files to an external drive I never did get the formula back

I believe i have that formula that you're after, or lost.

[smokeshow]

Personally I think any of our math formulas work - it's just the whole stead state part that you're not going to get from customers logging or anywhere other than a controlled environment such as being on a dynometer.

This... There's a number of ways to get the job done. Just to state the obvious, my write-up on doing MAF and VE simultaneously is nothing new. It's just exploiting the additional data available on the CAN to get more done at once. The requirements are still the same though....has to be steady state. It will give you trash results if you don't try to keep things smooth. Then again, so will every other approach. That said...some attempts at calibration don't work. Dynamic airflow is one of them. If you're steady state, it matches with the MAF so it'll make it look like you've created something new. But deviate from steady state and you really don't know what the prediction will do on a modded vehicle.

Steady state is always key. For the DIY guys, you can get it pretty close on the road. If you're a snatch like Dave, then you can use your fancy underutilized dyno. Hell you could even use the compressible flow model and calculate an accurate airflow from the throttle alone. Just ask Chrysler lol

[PGA2B]

Pheasant checking in. Pass the popcorn!

What up dude!

I believe i have that formula that you're after, or lost.

If it is your exhaust formula I don't have the PID it needs.