Accurate Wideband Options??

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10-07-2014
Midnite Magic

Accurate Wideband Options??

Looking to maybe upgrade what I am using right now for my chassis dyno. I currently have 2 NGK AFX widebands that I purchased with the NTK sensors and they have given me great service and still free air calibrate and work perfectly. I am kind of a nut and have been tuning some high dollar/horsepower cars and I would like to get the utmost accuracy but also don't want to spend money if I am not going to see a difference in outputs. I was thinking of have 1 or 3 options and was wondering if anyone had any advice

1.) Send one or both of my NGK units to ECM for the voltage & stability upgrades (can someone chime in if you notice a difference) to convert them to what they call the AFM 1600L and either keep using the sensors I have or upgrade them to the calibration sensors (L2H2). I am not really sure if my NTK sensors are the LHA(production) or L1H1? They are both marked Japan NTK and have 0YL7 on the nut.

2.) Purchase an AFM1000 from ECM. These around around $1600 and come with the NGK lab grade sensor (~$500) They come in a few different configurations
Std. Version: 0.55 to 1.24 λ, 8.0 to 18.0 AFR (gasoline), 3.55 to 7.99 (methanol)
B Version: 0.41 to 1.37 λ, 6.0 to 20.0 AFR (gasoline), 2.66 to 8.88 (methanol)
C Version: 0.69 to 1.37 λ, 10.0 to 20.0 AFR (gasoline), 4.44 to 8.88 (methanol)

3.) Purchase something else I am missing?? New Bosch LSU 4.9 unit?
10-07-2014
DSteck

Upgrade them.
10-08-2014
Midnite Magic

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSteck

Upgrade them.

Can you actually tell a difference between your AFX & AFM1600L? Are you using the production grade or calibration grade sensors?
10-13-2014
DSteck

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnite Magic

Can you actually tell a difference between your AFX & AFM1600L? Are you using the production grade or calibration grade sensors?

I'm using the NTK sensors. As far as stability, there isn't a notable difference, but I trust ECM in what they do. The ability to get deep into the lean range is nice too. This always bothered me about the standard AFX. I also like that the box shows lambda now. Overall, I have an even higher level of confidence in my widebands.
10-13-2014
LSxpwrdZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSteck

I'm using the NTK sensors. As far as stability, there isn't a notable difference, but I trust ECM in what they do. The ability to get deep into the lean range is nice too. This always bothered me about the standard AFX. I also like that the box shows lambda now. Overall, I have an even higher level of confidence in my widebands.

This.

I upgraded mine and don't notice any difference really in stability but I can say the response is a bit better. ECM told me the NGK had a "buffer" to smooth out the analog output and that the ECM AFM1600L would be a more direct drive analog output. With the modded version I feel more confident in it's readings knowing they had hands on my box in a custom build fashion rather than a mass produced unit. Not saying the NGK version is bad at all either but the peace of mind is well worth the price tag and the benefits Dave mentioned are all +'s!
10-17-2014
ChrisA

What does ECM charge for this upgrade?
10-18-2014
DSteck

I think it's about $220 with shipping.
12-06-2014
fullthrottle

Quote:

Originally Posted by DSteck

I'm using the NTK sensors. As far as stability, there isn't a notable difference, but I trust ECM in what they do. The ability to get deep into the lean range is nice too. This always bothered me about the standard AFX. I also like that the box shows lambda now. Overall, I have an even higher level of confidence in my widebands.

I'm about to order one of the Ballenger motorsports AFR500's and send it to ECM for the extended range and lambda conversion. (I already talked to Ron at ECM and he told me to send it and they would call me for payment when it's done) the base AFR500 starts at $299 and comes with a Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor. You mentioned that you are using a NTK sensor but which one? Ballenger motorsports has 3 different NTK sensor upgrade options for the AFX (AFR500) over the base kit.

NTK production grade sensor (+$50)
NTK calibration grade sensor (+$150) (I'm assuming most are using this with their AFX controllers)
NTK lab grade sensor (+$450) (this is a special order sensor but James at Ballenger motorsports said they can have them built for the AFX / AFR500.

Has anyone tried the lab grade sensor. If so can you give any feedback on it as to how much better (if any) it is than the less expensive sensors?

Thanks

Mike
12-08-2014
MikeOD

If you can list the NGK/NTK part numbers for the sensors, I'll let you know which one I'm running. I don't recognize the Ballenger part numbers.
12-09-2014
fullthrottle

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeOD

If you can list the NGK/NTK part numbers for the sensors, I'll let you know which one I'm running. I don't recognize the Ballenger part numbers.

I believe the factory part numbers are as follows.

Bosch LSU 4.2[UEGO with NTK/NGK connector] (standard in the Ballenger motorsports base AFR500 wideband Kit ( $299.00) formerly the NGK AFX wideband) is factory part number 15401 (I'm not 100% sure on this part number) What I do know is the AFR500 base lot sensor is the Bosch LSU 4.2 and it's the same Bosch sensor that used to be standard with the NGK AFX pre NTK sensor. I'm not 100 percent on this part number but I think it's either Bosch Part Number: 0258006065 or Bosch Part Number: 0258006066

Available upgrade sensors are as follows:

NTK Production Grade Sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = 24302 (+ $50)

NTK Calibration grade sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = 24300 (+ $150 bucks)

Lab grade sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = Unknown (I don't know because they are a special order item and I've never ordered one. (+ $450)
12-09-2014
bmotorsports

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullthrottle

I believe the factory part numbers are as follows.

Bosch LSU 4.2[UEGO with NTK/NGK connector] (standard in the Ballenger motorsports base AFR500 wideband Kit ( $299.00) formerly the NGK AFX wideband) is factory part number 15401 (I'm not 100% sure on this part number) What I do know is the AFR500 base lot sensor is the Bosch LSU 4.2 and it's the same Bosch sensor that used to be standard with the NGK AFX pre NTK sensor. I'm not 100 percent on this part number but I think it's either Bosch Part Number: 0258006065 or Bosch Part Number: 0258006066

Available upgrade sensors are as follows:

NTK Production Grade Sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = 24302 (+ $50)

NTK Calibration grade sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = 24300 (+ $150 bucks)

Lab grade sensor (As Defined/Named by Ballenger Motorsports) Factory Part Number = Unknown (I don't know because they are a special order item and I've never ordered one. (+ $450)

I'll provide a breakdown here to clarify:

Bosch Standard Sensor - Bosch LSU 4.2 Sensor with the NTK Connector. This is the Bosch VW Sensor used in several other systems. The Bosch numbers you listed above are actually 4.0 Sensors. The Bosch sensor we offer came with the AFX prior to NTK Sensor change in 2010.
NTK production grade sensor (+$50) - LHA NTK family sensor, 4mA. Came with old AFX after NTK Sensor change in 2010.
NTK calibration grade sensor (+$150) - L1H1/L2H2 NTK family sensor, 6mA. Generally a more robust, longer life sensor that never came with the AFX.
NTK lab grade sensor (+$450) - Lab Grade NTK family sensor, 6mA. This is the higher end ECM lab grade sensor. Fastest response, longest life. We do offer this for the AFR500.

Going to the AFM1600L changes the display to lambda and widens the range on the lean side and is a good option for many tuners. Our AFR500 ( http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337 ) can be upgraded to an AFM1600L just as the AFX could.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Midnite Magic

Looking to maybe upgrade what I am using right now for my chassis dyno. I currently have 2 NGK AFX widebands that I purchased with the NTK sensors and they have given me great service and still free air calibrate and work perfectly. I am kind of a nut and have been tuning some high dollar/horsepower cars and I would like to get the utmost accuracy but also don't want to spend money if I am not going to see a difference in outputs. I was thinking of have 1 or 3 options and was wondering if anyone had any advice

1.) Send one or both of my NGK units to ECM for the voltage & stability upgrades (can someone chime in if you notice a difference) to convert them to what they call the AFM 1600L and either keep using the sensors I have or upgrade them to the calibration sensors (L2H2). I am not really sure if my NTK sensors are the LHA(production) or L1H1? They are both marked Japan NTK and have 0YL7 on the nut.

2.) Purchase an AFM1000 from ECM. These around around $1600 and come with the NGK lab grade sensor (~$500) They come in a few different configurations
Std. Version: 0.55 to 1.24 λ, 8.0 to 18.0 AFR (gasoline), 3.55 to 7.99 (methanol)
B Version: 0.41 to 1.37 λ, 6.0 to 20.0 AFR (gasoline), 2.66 to 8.88 (methanol)
C Version: 0.69 to 1.37 λ, 10.0 to 20.0 AFR (gasoline), 4.44 to 8.88 (methanol)

3.) Purchase something else I am missing?? New Bosch LSU 4.9 unit?

Just to comment on this.

1.) If you still have the original NTK sensors from an AFX, they are LHA. You can use the Calibration Grade or Lab Grade sensors as listed above. The AFM1600L upgrade and the Lab grade sensor is certainly a good option.

2.) An AFM1000 is an excellent option and it comes with the lab grade sensor. The range just depends on what you see on your dyno and with your customer base. Every time you widen the range, you lose some analog resolution as a tradeoff.

3.) There isn't a current Bosch LSU 4.9 unit more accurate than the above options. The LSU 4.9 Sensor is better than the LSU 4.2 in some scenarios but its newness does not mean it suddenly supersedes higher grade calibration equipment using NTK or Bosch Sensors.

If you have money to spend despite your AFX units working well, I'd recommend a pair of new sensors for the AFX units and an AFM1000 as a benchmark. You will be able to use the AFX units for most of your dyno time, setup, etc and bring out the AFM1000 when you wish to do benchmarking / validation. Typically, you want to at least get your vehicles in the ballpark on timing & fuel before hooking up a wideband in any case as exposure to a misfiring or extremely rich setup is a good way to shorten sensor life.

For those interested, here is the product page for the The Ballenger Motorsports AFR500 ( http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337 ).
12-09-2014
fullthrottle

Thank you for the input. :cheers:
08-05-2016
FlorianGee

Now with the AFR500v2 being available, I understand that you can switch the output via jumpers from AFR to lambda and also set it for the wider range.

Does that make it sending to ECM obsolete? Or is the only benefit left sending it to ECM that you get a more direct output?
08-05-2016
bmotorsports

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlorianGee

Now with the AFR500v2 being available, I understand that you can switch the output via jumpers from AFR to lambda and also set it for the wider range.

Does that make it sending to ECM obsolete? Or is the only benefit left sending it to ECM that you get a more direct output?

Here is the product website with the manual, settings, etc (see the technical tab):
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/2337

Here is the jumper guide:
http://www.bmotorsports.com/download...ns_Graphic.pdf

The jumpers alter the following settings:
1 - Sensor (4.2/NTK, 4.9)
2 - Range (9-16 is standard, 6-20 is wide)
3 - Display (Gas AFR, Methanol AFR, Lambda)

The display jumpers do not affect the the analog output. You don't change any setting on the AFR500v2 to make the analog output lambda, gas, methanol, etc. You set the analog input to lambda, gas, methanol, etc on the receiving device like the HPT box, logger, etc.

You can read lambda, gas, methanol, etc on the AFR500v1 analog output but the v1 can't display lambda on the screen.

In general, there isn't a reason to send the AFR500v2 into ECM for re-work.
08-06-2016
LSxpwrdZ

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmotorsports

In general, there isn't a reason to send the AFR500v2 into ECM for re-work.

I've been wanting to ask that very question. The wide range option is quite a bit wider than the ECM AFM1600L (it's range is 0.60L-1.30L). Also curious about the analog buffer/response compared to the AFM1600L. My 1600L was very very responsive, way more than an older AFX. I have an AFR500v2 now as well and it seems to be really responsive as well especially with the 4.9 sensor. I've not had time to really compare them but I'd like to test both of them with various sensors to see their response in the same exhaust pipe.