http://www.injectordynamics.com/size14.html
Pretty good read about the claims regarding companies offering the same product as ID.
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http://www.injectordynamics.com/size14.html
Pretty good read about the claims regarding companies offering the same product as ID.
"No eye gouging, no strikes to the groin, no biting" LOL I love it
PS that stuff is only tolerated on YB. lmao!
On a serious note, that's pretty pathetic.
Oh boy..... Yaws on a rampage.......
Well done......no lets back to calibrating!
Howard
Good read and very sad and true... Its hard to convince people not to pull all the wires and install a carb and ditch the 'BS'. Plus this forum does need cleaning up :rolleyes:
Hey guys,
I just wanted to clarify this article is referencing Fuel Injector Connection and has no association with Fuel Injector Clinic.
Fuel Injector Clinic does all of their own development and testing in house. We have been around for a long time and take great pride in the quality of our products and our excellent customer service and support.
It is unfortunate that they chose a name so similar to ours and now more than ever I want to make sure there isn't any confusion!
If there are any questions at all please feel free to contact me at [email protected].
"I can only say that I have a better chance of banging Kate Beckinsale and her twin sister in the back of the presidential limo...."
I want in on that lol
I think anybody does.
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/z...848C1C0A20.jpg
Good find. I would like to point out that apparently there are a few kinks, however, if you have a fuel pressure regulator MAP referenced, the IFR rate wouldn't matter, you just need the base flow rate, as is typical with using such large injectors.
also, as these are bosch injectors and as are IDs and these are very close to the part number(s) I would expect to see similar characteristics as I would hope that Bosch manufacturing for very similar injectors to be very similar. As far as resemblances to stock tables and etc, well I can't give feedback on that, I would like to see a third party comparison and data test on the injectors.
and for those that would like to know, I went to a third party for a quote on data testing. I would have thought it would have been around $1500 maybe $2000 total, but apparently there are costs and adders associated with this that I didn't know about. Asked for quote for testing 2 of each set of injectors I have. Lets just say that this won't be happening due to the cost unless I get some funding...lol. $3,9xx bucks for testing 2 sets of 2 injectors.
You can't possibly be trying to defend them...
Oh wait, your name is on the spreadsheet history of falsely generated data. It all makes sense.
Using a referenced fuel pressure regulator has absolutely nothing to do with this.
apparently you and yaw don't communicate much, nor do you understand how excel works with regard to people opening files and saving them with modifications.
Quit the bullshit comments. My name is on that spreadsheet as I transposed the data for Jon and saved it and emailed it to him. Jon know understands how to transpose the data so I don't have to do it anymore.
Correct, the funny data has nothing to do with an FPR, however, if used with an FPR all you need is the base injector flow rate at 43.5psi and populate the IFR table. Bernoulli principle should apply and we should see it in the data, and we don't so there is something wrong there. Also, a purchase was made for ANOTHER piece of equipment so that the same tests can be done as with what Greg Banish is doing/capable of doing. We will soon see
Bernoulli principle is close, but it's not 100% accurate.
There's no bullshit comments. You claw around trying to defend FIC. You wanted proof of the ripped off data. Well, here it is. It is pretty black and white.
Your bullshit comment was as follows:I do not know the entire back story nor who did what when all of this first started, I don't care. As I have seen it, IDs data tables are all available for public download (was it this way years ago?) and unless he is tracking every single IP address & purchasers that downloaded them way back to when this whole crap got started we can't prove exactly who started sharing without going to every single person and not having anyone lie.Quote:
Oh wait, your name is on the spreadsheet history of falsely generated data. It all makes sense.
Publicly available here:http://www.injectordynamics.com/ApplicationData.html
What I want out of this is do we have two vendors that can provide data? Seeing some mistakes are clear and there needs to be some revising at this point and verification of data if the vendor does have the equipment to provide such. Regarding similarities to other injectors and etc, I would expect to see some if the injectors are of similar part number and make, but some I wouldn't when comparing to other stock files & etc.
So did you transpose it wrong then? That's a pretty blatant error on the fuel flow that should NOT be there if it was generated by somebody who knew what they were doing.
The facts are obvious. It is incredibly black and white. That's all there is to it. I'm done witcha.
no didn't transpose it wrong. did you see it all unfold from the beginning? did you see the first person to ever get IDs data? how do you know that specifically FIC got that data and was the very first to pass it around?
it is very easy to point a finger at someone.
Spreadsheet is too big to attach.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/attach...1&d=1345658089
Now I'm done.
you are misunderstanding my statements.
did you see it all unfold from the beginning? did you see the first person to ever get IDs data?
and here is some info for ya also:
Here's the link where the data came from. Fact. http://mickstuning.blogspot.com/
Why doesn't FIC give out ford data, because this is all that was on this link.
Also the 1000cc FIC and ID both use the identical injector pn 0280158117
The 2000 both use 0280158821
The 850 both use 0280158051.
Still, no one has shown me a flow bench of ID. Just that pre-flowing break in bench.
Posted well after ID originated the data. Further, the files don't even exist. I don't see what something from June of 2011 has to do since ID's files have existed since well before then.
Just because companies use the same core does not mean the end result is the same. Do you understand why the data is so different than the unmodified injector? Do you understand how they get matched?
It's clear that this data shown in the article was "generated" by copying and pasting existing data, either from Injector Dynamics, or a factory tune, and then applying a multiplier that masks its true identity.
Deceitful? You bet.
that date has changed, it was different. The files were pulled down due to copyright infringement. Ask Paul.
lets lay it out. Exactly how do the tips get modified, how are they drilled? lets get some pictures going and etc so everyone can understand. CNC'd? on a lathe?Quote:
Just because companies use the same core does not mean the end result is the same. Do you understand why the data is so different than the unmodified injector? Do you understand how they get matched?
there may need to be an improvement in the recorded data for better results.Quote:
It's clear that this data shown in the article was "generated" by copying and pasting existing data, either from Injector Dynamics, or a factory tune, and then applying a multiplier that masks its true identity.
Deceitful? You bet.
I'm also very curious about every injector being tested and done and time invested.
Quoted from Greg Banish:
so you are telling me that every injector company A picks up, every single one is tested or modified and then tested and characterized with that many hours? How many employees does company A have? how is this profitable? do they have a 16 injector bench or more to do so many at once?Quote:
As long as the injectors are clean and functional, data collection takes about one full day in the lab for me to get what I consider the basics of characterization. This means a complete flow curve at 13.5v for a set of eight injectors at a single pressure and a shorter series of tests at varying voltages in order to find the trendline of offset vs voltage and populate that for the same single pressure.
Adding multiple pressure breakpoints simply adds a complete repeat of the procedure, as does running more than 8 pieces. I typically test 4 injectors at a time to make sure that their flow doesn't outstrip pump capacity or rail distribution, so testing 8pcs means two sets of four. If we are trying to get data for a part number rather than just a single set of flow matched injectors, then we really should test more than 8pcs. There can be build tolerances of +/-6% for production injectors, more for aftermarket. Finding the real "average" behavior requires that we test more samples in order to make sure we get a statistically significant sample.
The going rate for engineering consultation is north of $100/hr (just like a good lawyer, accountant, doctor, etc...) so spending a full day or three on this quickly eclipses the typical cost most associate with "engine tuning." I'm not recommending that everyone has every single injector measured, as this would be prohibitively expensive. But it is certainly nice to be able to have the confidence to say that you really know exactly how much fuel is being delivered on each shot. To some race teams or injector manufacturers, this cost is literally a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the operation. So for those guys, we try to make sure we have as much GOOD data as possible.
welcome to manufacturing 101 & profit (if item sells): design part(s), build a few, do some testing, make improvements, manufacture final part and test it. Mass Manufacturing and then check every so many part(s).
Then introduce human error if involved during part setup & making... and voila you have error(s). On a side note, that was what happened with one of my axles in my car and the company wouldn't believe me until I machined a testing plate with the bolt pattern and sent them pictures and videos of it not fitting and not being in tolerance.
Copyright infringement you say? If so, then clearly ID owns it. However, I'm betting you are just using what's listed as one of the possible reasons it was removed.
ID will not share their procedure. Intellectual property should ring a bell. Further, it's clear that you don't fully understand where the data comes from.
In terms of the immense time involved in getting the data... Now you understand the cost of IDs. Paul built his own equipment... Not some off the shelf thing. He said it takes about four hours to get data. I couldn't tell you how many are done at once, but they are done in large batches. Then, they are grouped based on similar response times. That's where matched sets come from. Injectors that are far from the mean are tossed in the trash.
You are really clawing the empty barrel for ways to defend FIC. It's obvious you lied when you told me you just wanted more information and wanted to learn. The article is a cut and dry breakdown of how FIC manipulates competitor data (and occasionally mixes it with factory data), and calls it their own.
I really don't know what else to tell you. You will never believe it.
I don't care for sharing a procedure, the basics are fine, as understanding the basics is the beginning and then being able to "engineer" the best ways to modify the injector with the best results. fully understand, nope, as I haven't seen it done nor been involved in doing it.
it is true we will not get to the bottom of this, I guess no one will at this point.
There has been an investment made into ensuring that data can be acquired correctly & accurately, so I don't know what else to say. He has even spoken with Greg.
I guess we will all see where it goes from here
Right on.
on what? and actually, I raise you. Who are these people, and why do they have so similar tables & etc?
Originally Posted by JOHNBOY66 @ LS1Tech seen here:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/16668647-post26.html
Look at the pdf.
http://boschdealer.com/specsheets/bosch827specsheet.pdf
Look here:
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ID1000.html
Compare the two starting at " Explanation of Dynamic Flow Graphs".
I have saved all this in case it gets taken down. Does ID work with them? Does ID know they are also using their graphs and "lingo", are they affiliated?
base page takes you here:
http://boschdealer.com/index.php?main_page=index - Muscle Motors
http://boschdealer.com/index.php?mai...products_id=47
Did all these other offending businesses get sent cease and desist letters that have used IDs data? What is the total now for offending businesses?
My sole question is why do you seem to be so focused after FIC?
Probably because they go out of their way to "say" it's their generated data and advertise with someone elses data. Thats about like me as a tuner swiping a tune from DStek for a procharged C6Z and putting that tune file in other similar cars and calling it mine, when it's plainly not.
I can see using the material in FIC point of view but in legal business to use propietary material like this a detailed reference to the datas source or permission from the originator is needed. Those other company's selling injectors and using the material may have just not been cought yet.
In the end any person with a bit of common sense, pulse generator/controller, graduated cylinder or weight scale can easily generate this data. It's not some huge secret how this stuff works but ripping off someone that has put in the hard work to generate the data is also uncalled for.
as has been mentioned already in this thread, the data that was found and that was spread all over had no owner information on it. So if that was all that you had ever seen and someone asked for data on those size and type of bosch injectors, hell, I'd post it. As I wouldn't know it belonged to any specific person, as there was no shown "owner" with that file(s). Kind of like how that HPTuner/EFI Live IFR calculate sheet got spread around with no credit, but they thanked whoever did make it, which I have never seen or heard who did. And it isn't at all that hard to come up with those numbers either.
and just so we are clear, FIC has the equipment to generate data, two machines now, and whether you like it or not, they are not using IDs data. And before you go and say the data is incorrect or just a multiplication of this and that, the point right now is that it is not IDs data.
Muscle Motor bosch injectors little technical article with an exact freaking copy of IDs stuff...that is nuts
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
O RLY?
How do you explain what was shown in the article? There were data sheets YOU supplied FROM FIC that ate blatant rip offs with a poor attempt at masking the original source. How do you explain FIC originally handing out ID's EXACT Excel file with the ID logos removed? This is the same company that used to give out data for stock injectors because they claimed the offset and short pulse adder didn't change since the injector internals were the same, completely ignoring the fact that the offset and short pulse adder are dynamic modifiers, and not functions of injector internals.
I genuinely can't keep reading what this kid says.
As far as stock injectors modified and using stock offsets Before anyone fucked with this data you started somewhere. So a million cars were tuned with tweaked stock data. FIC mods stock injectors up 25% max. So you can tune around the offset difference with great results.
I really don't understand your continuous rant about data. If I take someones injector data and I multiply it by a little, then tweak it a little more, I don't care what you say, it isn't your data or table any more. And with that if no one knows what you started from or where you found some reference data and tweaked it then who the hell knows.
and i said it before and i'll say it again, that excel sheet was handed out as it was acquired as is, but it doesn't matter, no one is winning at this and I have better things to do with my life than keep this up. Kid...we are within a year of each other. Guess we will see where the road goes.
I'm going to reprint War and Peace, but in a different font. I'll call it my own. That's legit.
war and peace happens every day. and its not only a different font, but the numbers are different. the only damn reason this continues is due to the original file that was emailed that you have shown, otherwise this fuss wouldn't be happening, as the data isn't the same, and FIC sells other injectors than what ID does and offers data that is not IDs data so wtf man.
I'm willing to bet that in the beginning that "data" spread like wildfire and a few were caught red handed with it and I will also bet some got it second hand and had no clue about whose it was or how it came about but kept it and when someone asked about an injector and they were like hey, yeh I have information on that. BAM, hey fool thats copyrighted data that we spent some hard time on. shit sorry didn't know, slap on the hand.
I'm betting this because I HAVE SEEN IT HAPPEN
Right on.
Even the green "LS1B" and red "LS3/7" labels are mine ("LS1B" specifically being EFILive terminology).