safe 4l60e TM settings

I have been trying to tune my stock 6.0L lq4 and 4l60e. I want to make my 4l60 last as long as possible and I haven't changed any TM settings. By default the abuse mode seems to be disabled and I am confused whether this means I have been driving with 0 transmission torque management. I recently removed the engine torque management and it is no longer pulling timing for shifts. Does anyone know what settings i should be using to make my 4l60 last? I will be replacing it with a built one in the future but until that is ready I want to try and make this one last. Here is my tune right now, Attachment 136215

Edit: I didn't realize that I posted this in the Engine section and I can't see how to delete the post. Reposted in transmission section https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...stock-6-0L-LQ4

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Originally Posted by NLBlazer

I have been trying to tune my stock 6.0L lq4 and 4l60e. I want to make my 4l60 last as long as possible and I haven't changed any TM settings. By default the abuse mode seems to be disabled and I am confused whether this means I have been driving with 0 transmission torque management. I recently removed the engine torque management and it is no longer pulling timing for shifts. Does anyone know what settings i should be using to make my 4l60 last? I will be replacing it with a built one in the future but until that is ready I want to try and make this one last. Here is my tune right now, Attachment 136215

Edit: I didn't realize that I posted this in the Engine section and I can't see how to delete the post. Reposted in transmission section https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...stock-6-0L-LQ4

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You MUST leave the Spark retard tables under Torque Management>Spark retard vs. torque reduction and Spark retard vs. torque loss at STOCK if you want the trans to pull timing on the shift. IF you hold your cursor on the tables the description at the bottom tells you this. Here is a file that shows which tables can be maxed out and which ones need to be stock. Attachment 136228 This one is running 7-8 boost on a 5.3/4l60e combo. Many people have destroyed the 4l60e by zeroing the spark retard tables not realizing it automatically disables the transmission side, even if the trans tables are untouched.

edit: I added a corvette servo, Sonnax .490 boost valve (line boosting kit), and Sonnax pinless accumulator pistons to my 4l60E. I installed the parts at 200k. It has survived 12,000 miles under boost, and has 260k total miles. I do service the transmission religiously. Drain and fills every 10k and filter change every 30k miles. I know a 4l80e is in my future since it already has a cam, ethanol, and boost.

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Originally Posted by Matt Vardaman

You MUST leave the Spark retard tables under Torque Management>Spark retard vs. torque reduction and Spark retard vs. torque loss at STOCK if you want the trans to pull timing on the shift. IF you hold your cursor on the tables the description at the bottom tells you this. Here is a file that shows which tables can be maxed out and which ones need to be stock. Attachment 136228 This one is running 7-8 boost on a 5.3/4l60e combo. Many people have destroyed the 4l60e by zeroing the spark retard tables not realizing it automatically disables the transmission side, even if the trans tables are untouched.

edit: I added a corvette servo, Sonnax .490 boost valve (line boosting kit), and Sonnax pinless accumulator pistons to my 4l60E. I installed the parts at 200k. It has survived 12,000 miles under boost, and has 260k total miles. I do service the transmission religiously. Drain and fills every 10k and filter change every 30k miles. I know a 4l80e is in my future since it already has a cam, ethanol, and boost.

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Good on ya, not going over 6K for the 1-2. If you can stand to have it any lower it'll be easier on the reverse drum. The huge ratio split between 1st and 2nd on these leaves you with a bunch of compromises you have to juggle, there is no one 'right' answer for everything.

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

Good on ya, not going over 6K for the 1-2. If you can stand to have it any lower it'll be easier on the reverse drum. The huge ratio split between 1st and 2nd on these leaves you with a bunch of compromises you have to juggle, there is no one 'right' answer for everything.

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Does this apply to a "built" 4L60e also?

Not sure what the cost of the Sonnax 2.84 input carrier kit is, but would this be a good option?

Instead of 3.06 to 1.625 stock, the Sonnex unit is 2.84 to 1.55 (for 2006 and earlier).

I was told to set it to at least 6500 and send it, like everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Matt Vardaman

You MUST leave the Spark retard tables under Torque Management>Spark retard vs. torque reduction and Spark retard vs. torque loss at STOCK if you want the trans to pull timing on the shift. IF you hold your cursor on the tables the description at the bottom tells you this. Here is a file that shows which tables can be maxed out and which ones need to be stock. Attachment 136228 This one is running 7-8 boost on a 5.3/4l60e combo. Many people have destroyed the 4l60e by zeroing the spark retard tables not realizing it automatically disables the transmission side, even if the trans tables are untouched.

edit: I added a corvette servo, Sonnax .490 boost valve (line boosting kit), and Sonnax pinless accumulator pistons to my 4l60E. I installed the parts at 200k. It has survived 12,000 miles under boost, and has 260k total miles. I do service the transmission religiously. Drain and fills every 10k and filter change every 30k miles. I know a 4l80e is in my future since it already has a cam, ethanol, and boost.

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Very interesting and useful file. Thanks for posting this.

I just checked my torque management>spark retard vs torque reduction and spark retard vs torque loss and I have a whole row of zero's.

Could this be why my 1-2 and 2-3 shifts took 1.577 and 2.659 seconds to complete?

Is there a performance downside to eliminating torque management?

I see you have both your commanded shifts at 6000 which seems low for a cammed motor.

Do you have any scanner logs with transmission input and output shaft PID's? I would be very interested to see what your actual shift times are especially because your combo would have similar amount torque as I have.

Sonnax Front planet set is about $700
https://www.ebay.com/itm/25541631909...Bk9SR-LPgtfGYg

In first gear the reverse drum, the one the intermediate band applies around, free-spins at ludicrous speed (I have heard it claimed that it spins at 2x input shaft RPM, but I believe it's really input shaft RPM x the 1st gear ratio - so, RPM x 3.06). Then to make the 1-2 that drum has to go from ludicrous speed to zero when the band applies. The very worst situation is to make it do a high RPM 1-2 which gets the drum smokin' hot, then stop the car, then launch and do another high RPM 1-2. The drum being squeezed by the band and heated then spun then heated then spun, makes the tabs on the drum flare out and it eventually saws the case in half.

A wide intermediate band helps somewhat, as the stock narrow band squeezes the drum right in the middle. The wide band spreads it out closer to the edges so the squeezing is more even. But getting it hot and then spinning it up still risks flaring out the tabs. There is no aftermarket reverse drum made by anybody for any price to address this issue.

If it's true that the drum spins at input RPM x 1st gear, then the $700-800 2.84 gearset only reduces the drum speed from 19,900 to 18,500 assuming a 6500 RPM shift point. It does though reduce the split between 1st & 2nd which makes less work for the intermediate band to do, which means less heat input into the drum. Slightly.

Trans torque management lets the shifts happen while the engine has all its timing yanked out and then, all the friction materials have to do is decelerate the mass of all the (mostly) free-spinning parts, it doesn't have to also fight against 500ft-lbs or whatever the engine is making at WOT.

I got a used sonnex 2.84 gearset, I'd let go for $400 shipped. Only has about 4k miles on it. I burnt up the 3-4 clutches, and wasn't sure if it had something to do with it, or if I messed up on the tune part. So I took it out on the rebuild.Attachment 136245

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

In first gear the reverse drum, the one the intermediate band applies around, free-spins at ludicrous speed (I have heard it claimed that it spins at 2x input shaft RPM, but I believe it's really input shaft RPM x the 1st gear ratio - so, RPM x 3.06). Then to make the 1-2 that drum has to go from ludicrous speed to zero when the band applies. The very worst situation is to make it do a high RPM 1-2 which gets the drum smokin' hot, then stop the car, then launch and do another high RPM 1-2. The drum being squeezed by the band and heated then spun then heated then spun, makes the tabs on the drum flare out and it eventually saws the case in half.

A wide intermediate band helps somewhat, as the stock narrow band squeezes the drum right in the middle. The wide band spreads it out closer to the edges so the squeezing is more even. But getting it hot and then spinning it up still risks flaring out the tabs. There is no aftermarket reverse drum made by anybody for any price to address this issue.

If it's true that the drum spins at input RPM x 1st gear, then the $700-800 2.84 gearset only reduces the drum speed from 19,900 to 18,500 assuming a 6500 RPM shift point. It does though reduce the split between 1st & 2nd which makes less work for the intermediate band to do, which means less heat input into the drum. Slightly.

Trans torque management lets the shifts happen while the engine has all its timing yanked out and then, all the friction materials have to do is decelerate the mass of all the (mostly) free-spinning parts, it doesn't have to also fight against 500ft-lbs or whatever the engine is making at WOT.

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Thank you!

Excellent clear explanation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NLBlazer

I have been trying to tune my stock 6.0L lq4 and 4l60e. I want to make my 4l60 last as long as possible and I haven't changed any TM settings. By default the abuse mode seems to be disabled and I am confused whether this means I have been driving with 0 transmission torque management. I recently removed the engine torque management and it is no longer pulling timing for shifts. Does anyone know what settings i should be using to make my 4l60 last? I will be replacing it with a built one in the future but until that is ready I want to try and make this one last. Here is my tune right now, Attachment 136215

Edit: I didn't realize that I posted this in the Engine section and I can't see how to delete the post. Reposted in transmission section https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...stock-6-0L-LQ4

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You have started a very good thread here for those of us with 4L60e's trying to make them live a bit longer.

I will make some changes and data log my input/output rpm's again with torque management restored at the next track session.

And with the help of the tune file provided by Matt Vardaman.

Because I have a good baseline data log with zero torque management this should be interesting and hopefully revealing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blindsquirrel

In first gear the reverse drum, the one the intermediate band applies around, free-spins at ludicrous speed (I have heard it claimed that it spins at 2x input shaft RPM, but I believe it's really input shaft RPM x the 1st gear ratio - so, RPM x 3.06). Then to make the 1-2 that drum has to go from ludicrous speed to zero when the band applies. The very worst situation is to make it do a high RPM 1-2 which gets the drum smokin' hot, then stop the car, then launch and do another high RPM 1-2. The drum being squeezed by the band and heated then spun then heated then spun, makes the tabs on the drum flare out and it eventually saws the case in half.

A wide intermediate band helps somewhat, as the stock narrow band squeezes the drum right in the middle. The wide band spreads it out closer to the edges so the squeezing is more even. But getting it hot and then spinning it up still risks flaring out the tabs. There is no aftermarket reverse drum made by anybody for any price to address this issue.

If it's true that the drum spins at input RPM x 1st gear, then the $700-800 2.84 gearset only reduces the drum speed from 19,900 to 18,500 assuming a 6500 RPM shift point. It does though reduce the split between 1st & 2nd which makes less work for the intermediate band to do, which means less heat input into the drum. Slightly.

Trans torque management lets the shifts happen while the engine has all its timing yanked out and then, all the friction materials have to do is decelerate the mass of all the (mostly) free-spinning parts, it doesn't have to also fight against 500ft-lbs or whatever the engine is making at WOT.

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Spoken like a true transmission GURU!! Thank You I could not have done better!!

A stock-internals 60E should be able to complete the WOT 1-2 in around .300s; built with all the good stuff they can be quicker than that. You don't want it to be too quick, otherwise it's like jamming a steel bar through the spokes of a bicycle wheel. It needs some time to decelerate (or accelerate, depending on the gear and power flow) but not too much or it's just slipping and vaporizing fluid and friction material.

Dragging it out to over a full second is putting a tremendous amount of heat into the drum & band. If I did a WOT 1-2 and saw the shift taking that long I would not do another single WOT run until I figured out what the problem was.

Attachment 136250

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Originally Posted by slarsen47

Very interesting and useful file. Thanks for posting this.

I just checked my torque management>spark retard vs torque reduction and spark retard vs torque loss and I have a whole row of zero's.

Could this be why my 1-2 and 2-3 shifts took 1.577 and 2.659 seconds to complete?

Is there a performance downside to eliminating torque management?

I see you have both your commanded shifts at 6000 which seems low for a cammed motor.

Do you have any scanner logs with transmission input and output shaft PID's? I would be very interested to see what your actual shift times are especially because your combo would have similar amount torque as I have.

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Before I learned to tune I paid for a tune that zeroed the torque management. My trans stopped pulling timing. It went from shifting decent to shifting slow and felt strange. In my experience the transmission shifts significantly faster with the TM timing table left at stock. Blind Squirrel always makes valid points. Get the trans in 2nd gear asap. Under Boost I get the trans in 2nd gear at around 4500-5000. If you want to test how quick the trans shifts (or feels), run some wot runs with the timing tables at stock (ecm 12840, 12878 spefifically) vs how you have it now.

with boost you need to be careful because the torque management table that claims how many degrees of timing is worth how much torque can be way off and this can lead to low line pressure during a shift causing more slipping as you command more and more torque reduction for high power cars.

For example lets say the TM table says 26% torque reduction
The first TM table at 26% has a number for timing retard, lets say X* of timing retard (retard vs % torque reduction)
The second TM Table find "X" degrees of timing column and see how much torque % it thinks will be removed (Engine torque loss % due to spark retard) Lets call that Y Torque loss

Now the ECU will subtract Y from the current predicted torque output. So lets say the engine was making 500lbf-ft of torque, and Y is 250, now it thinks the engine only making 250lbf-ft of torque.
This will cause the ECU to look up a new value in the Force Motor current table based on upshift pressure tables for the reduced torque during a shift, it could/will reduce line pressure significantly.


To fix this issue I altered mostly the second TM table so that even for large number of a degrees of retard it only removes a tiny bit of torque, for example "27*" column I have 6% of torque reduction.

I've heard it can impact other tables which rely on timing reduction but in gen3 I haven't seen any other tables or behaviors that were affected by my change and its been great having lots of timing retard with plenty of shift pressure.